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Thomas Bushnell BSG
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 806
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 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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Loïc Minier <lool+debian@via.ecp.fr> writes:
| Quote: | On Tue, Jul 18, 2006, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
If the anti-spam advocates consistently said "our measures impose
such-and-such a cost, but we think it's worth it", I would be
delighted.
the measures impose a cost, but we think it's worth it
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Can you detail what the cost is for the specific procedures in use on
Debian's servers? No, because you are apparently unaware it exists
already. But yet, without knowing the cost, you are sure it's worth
it. Bah.
| Quote: | Can we get greylisting now?
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We have it, duh. Have you not been paying attention?
Thomas |
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Pierre HABOUZIT
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Greylisting: discussion should stop here, for now (Re: greylisting on debian.org?)
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Le mar 18 juillet 2006 21:26, Thomas Bushnell BSG a écrit :
| Quote: | Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> writes:
For the record (it was already said in the thread IIRC), the setup
we are discussing is in production on alioth since sth like 4 or 5
monthes now (maybe a bit less) on my idea, and thanks to Raphael
Hertzog for actually using his alioth admin hat to put it together.
Can you document on the relevant web page exactly how the graylisting
works and what specific things get blocked and when?
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I've already gived numbers in the thread (even graphs), for a similar
setup.
I don't have access to alioth logs, but the setup is world readable,
log on alioth and read it  Moreover, as there is quite few valid
aliases, alioth greylist do not takes care of the recipient in account
for the greylisting, but only the MAIL FROM + SENDER IP, which a good
trade off for alioth, but may not be true for DD accounts. that's the
sole "deviation" of what has been discussed here, and is not very
relevant to the discussion anyway.
Technically, I don't know what you want me to say more than what is
explained on my blog and in that thread (or in alioth's world readable
exim.conf).
Moreover I don't see what value the 6 or 7 mails that you posted less
than 1 hour ago, in the same quarter, answering to at least half of the
most recents posts in the thread, have made the discussion make any
progress.
--
ˇOˇ Pierre Habouzit
ˇˇO madcoder@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org |
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Stephen Gran
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 223
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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This one time, at band camp, Thomas Bushnell BSG said:
| Quote: | So the meaning of 4xx is "temporary local problem". Sending that when
you don't have a temporary local problem is a violation, right there.
Must the standard repeat after every sentence, "oh, and don't lie".
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Actually, that's just the error message most MTA's give out. The RFC
has finer grained meanings for the range of 4xx messages. Would you be
happier if greylisting gave back a 451 (error in processing)? This is
factually true - processing began, but one of the preconditions failed.
That is not a lie.
You might want to go back and reread the RFCs about all of this.
Most of what you are saying isn't actually in the RFCs, but is part of
the mythology that has grown up around them. Try to find 'be liberal in
what you accept ... ' in RFC 2821. Notice also that local site policy
_always_ trumps the RFC, but with a note to the effect that you _should_
(not must) take care to not violate interoperability when implementing
site policy. I would argue greylisting doesn't violate interoperability.
But maybe you have another assertion.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| ,''`. Stephen Gran |
| : :' : sgran@debian.org |
| `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
| `- http://www.debian.org |
----------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Stephen Gran
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 223
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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This one time, at band camp, Thomas Bushnell BSG said:
| Quote: | Loīc Minier <lool+debian@via.ecp.fr> writes:
On Tue, Jul 18, 2006, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
If the anti-spam advocates consistently said "our measures impose
such-and-such a cost, but we think it's worth it", I would be
delighted.
the measures impose a cost, but we think it's worth it
Can you detail what the cost is for the specific procedures in use on
Debian's servers? No, because you are apparently unaware it exists
already. But yet, without knowing the cost, you are sure it's worth
it. Bah.
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The specific cost right now is that we have load averages on master in
excess of 300. Fairly consistently.
Greylisting promises to ease that load by quite a bit. It imposes a
small cost: some legitimate mail that doesn't meet whatever criteria is
decided on (rDNS, RBL, whatever) will be delayed. None will be rejected
by this measure, unless the sending site itself can't be bothered with
RFC compliance. That doesn't bother me that much. If it bothers you,
use your non-Debian email address for all your package related work,
and hardly any of your mail will pass through master.
And I notice you still haven't been able to come up with anything
resembling a link for your earlier assertions. Can we take it as read
that they were, in fact, unfounded?
| Quote: | Can we get greylisting now?
We have it, duh. Have you not been paying attention?
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We don't have it yet. Have you not been paying attention? The only
delay we have now is due to spam clogged queues and load.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| ,''`. Stephen Gran |
| : :' : sgran@debian.org |
| `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
| `- http://www.debian.org |
----------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Josselin Mouette
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 319
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:30 am Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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Le mardi 18 juillet 2006 ā 12:22 -0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG a écrit :
| Quote: | Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> writes:
I have refused greylisting for a long time for that exact reason.
However the setup Pierre Habouzit describes does not delay most of
legitimate mail. Frankly, the remaining delays are sporadic and one can
live with them.
What bothers me is that we hear "it never delays legitimate mail!" and
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Who said that?
| Quote: | then "well, ok, it delays some".
If the anti-spam advocates consistently said "our measures impose
such-and-such a cost, but we think it's worth it", I would be
delighted.
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This is exactly what I'm saying. There is a cost, but it is small
compared to the benefit.
| Quote: | But what I seem to hear is not that. It's "hey, this imposes no
costs!"
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Who said that?
| Quote: | or "spam is evil, so any cost is worth bearing to fight it!"
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Who said that?
And by the way, have you talked about the cost of all this spam going
through? I'm currently still receiving between 100 and 200 spams per day
on my @debian.org, and this has a *huge* cost.
--
.''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\
: :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org
`. `' joss@debian.org
`- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom |
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Hamish Moffatt
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 164
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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On Tue, Jul 18, 2006 at 12:24:21PM -0700, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
| Quote: | So the meaning of 4xx is "temporary local problem". Sending that when
you don't have a temporary local problem is a violation, right there.
Must the standard repeat after every sentence, "oh, and don't lie".
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If it helps, think of it being a temporary local problem that "we don't
trust the sender yet".
I think you are being unreasonably difficult in this discussion.
"Be liberal in what you accept..." ?
Hamish
--
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>
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Adrian von Bidder
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:20 am Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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On Wednesday 19 July 2006 00:13, Stephen Gran wrote:
| Quote: | This one time, at band camp, Thomas Bushnell BSG said:
Loīc Minier <lool+debian@via.ecp.fr> writes:
Can we get greylisting now?
We have it, duh. Have you not been paying attention?
We don't have it yet. Have you not been paying attention? The only
delay we have now is due to spam clogged queues and load.
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Stop it right now.
alioth has greylisting. This whole discussion has, though, never been about
alioth. I guess you *both* know that already since you've read the
discussion. So don't play silly just for the sake of it, please.
-- vbi
--
All computers wait at the same speed. |
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Claus Färber
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:
Re: greylisting on debian.org?
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Thomas Bushnell BSG <tb@becket.net> schrieb/wrote:
| Quote: | So the meaning of 4xx is "temporary local problem".
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RFC 2822 says "4yz Transient Negative Completion reply" (p. 42). The
standard also encourages the re-use of existing error codes for
"slightly different situations" (p. 43).
Claus
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Claus Färber
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Measuring "should I greylist?" false positive rate [was: greylisting on debian.org?]
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Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> schrieb/wrote:
| Quote: | Yeah, master took 31 minutes to deliver the mail to the next SMTP
server, and I'm an admin on it (that's the mail server I was speaking
of earlier in the thread) and it was its first submission.
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In other words, not using greylisting delays legitimate mail?
Claus
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