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| Author |
Message |
Poul-Henning Kamp
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 436
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:38 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes:
| Quote: | Hi,
I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs
console code.
|
Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we
talk about here:
When you say "console", do you mean
"vga+keyboard" ?
or
"printf(9) destination" ?
or
"/dev/console" ?
or all of the above ?
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Gordon Bergling
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
Hi,
* Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk):
| Quote: | In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes:
I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs
console code.
Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we
talk about here:
When you say "console", do you mean
"vga+keyboard" ?
or
"printf(9) destination" ?
or
"/dev/console" ?
or all of the above ?
|
What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize
FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from "simple" vga
+ keyboard to a possible machine indepent framebuffer API.
The case, why I am considering porting wscons, is that in this way all
*BSD could benefit from this work.
If they would adopt changes is another question. ;)
Sorry, if that wasn't clear...
best regards,
Gordon
--
Gordon Bergling <GBergling at 0xfce3.net> http://www.0xFCE3.net/
PGP Fingerprint: 7732 9BB1 5013 AE8B E42C 28E0 93B9 D32B C76F 02A0
RIPE-HDL: MDTP-RIPE "There is no place like 127.0.0.0/8"
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Poul-Henning Kamp
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:54 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
In message <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes:
| Quote: | or all of the above ?
What I mean was 'all of the above'.
|
Cool!
We need to talk, because I have my axe^H^H^Heditor aimed at the tty code
and there is significant intersection and some nasty details we have
to work out.
Any chance you'll be at EuroBSDcon ?
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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M. Warner Losh
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 365
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net>
Gordon Bergling <gbergling@0xfce3.net> writes:
: Hi,
:
: * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk):
: > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes:
: > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs
: > >console code.
: >
: > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we
: > talk about here:
: >
: > When you say "console", do you mean
: > "vga+keyboard" ?
: > or
: > "printf(9) destination" ?
: > or
: > "/dev/console" ?
: > or all of the above ?
:
: What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize
: FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from "simple" vga
: + keyboard to a possible machine indepent framebuffer API.
wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination.
Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is really a
framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga), with zero
or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system.
It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the 'console'
issues that you've been keen on working out.
Warner
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Gordon Bergling
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
* Thus spake M. Warner Losh (imp@bsdimp.com):
| Quote: | In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net
Gordon Bergling <gbergling@0xfce3.net> writes:
: * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk):
: > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon Bergling writes:
: > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of FreeBSDs
: > >console code.
:
: > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about what we
: > talk about here:
:
: > When you say "console", do you mean
: > "vga+keyboard" ?
: > or
: > "printf(9) destination" ?
: > or
: > "/dev/console" ?
: > or all of the above ?
:
: What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize
: FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from "simple" vga
: + keyboard to a possible machine indepent framebuffer API.
wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination.
Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is really a
framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga), with zero
or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system.
It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the 'console'
issues that you've been keen on working out.
|
With other words, its something desireable to have at FreeBSD?
best regards,
Gordon
--
Gordon Bergling <GBergling at 0xfce3.net> http://www.0xFCE3.net/
PGP Fingerprint: 7732 9BB1 5013 AE8B E42C 28E0 93B9 D32B C76F 02A0
RIPE-HDL: MDTP-RIPE "There is no place like 127.0.0.0/8"
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Peter Wemm
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 11 Apr 2002
Posts: 113
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
On Thursday 27 October 2005 10:07 am, Gordon Bergling wrote:
| Quote: | * Thus spake M. Warner Losh (imp@bsdimp.com):
In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net
Gordon Bergling <gbergling@0xfce3.net> writes:
: * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk):
: > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon
Bergling writes:
: > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of
: > > FreeBSDs console code.
:
: > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about
: > what we talk about here:
:
: > When you say "console", do you mean
: > "vga+keyboard" ?
: > or
: > "printf(9) destination" ?
: > or
: > "/dev/console" ?
: > or all of the above ?
:
: What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize
: FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from
: "simple" vga + keyboard to a possible machine indepent
: framebuffer API.
wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination.
Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is
really a framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga),
with zero or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system.
It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the
'console' issues that you've been keen on working out.
With other words, its something desireable to have at FreeBSD?
|
A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all
the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change
without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit.
Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things
like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha,
sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere.
It works with multiple mice and (supposedly) multiple keyboards, but
that is more a function of external drivers (sysmouse and kbdmux etc).
I think a wscons port was attempted before, early in the sparc64 days,
but I don't remember that clearly.
Also, there is ssh and serial console between old and new freebsd
systems to keep in mind. Having the escape codes consistent is
valueable in a data center where you have to tip/cu in text mode over a
serial cable to another machine's console and all the control codes are
in sync.
What would a wscons port buy us anyway? I'm not trying to pour cold
water on it, but I would like to know what we get in return for the
pain. And how much pain there will be? Does it fix the
printf/console/syslogd/dmesg/etc problems? I tend to think the latter
group of problems are indepenant of what the actual console driver is.
Things that are personally crucial to me:
* Speed. (syscons is lightning fast)
* text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works.
* cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect
compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth.
--
Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com
"All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5
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Poul-Henning Kamp
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
In message <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org>, Peter Wemm writes:
| Quote: | A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all
the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change
without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit.
|
Agreed.
| Quote: | Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things
like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha,
sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere.
|
....but studying the source code, one can't help wonder if somewhere
inside there is a small device driver struggling to get out...
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch
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M. Warner Losh
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 365
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
In message: <25022.1130443059@critter.freebsd.dk>
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> writes:
: In message <200510271147.13917.peter@wemm.org>, Peter Wemm writes:
:
: >A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all
: >the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change
: >without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit.
:
: Agreed.
Actually, the input multiplexing is what interests me. The one or
more keyboards part in my description means one or more at the same
time... There are likewise a number of issues relating to usb
mice/keyboards that are much better in uhid from NetBSD than from
FreeBSD.
This isn't so much about escape sequences and such.
: >Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things
: >like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha,
: >sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere.
:
: ...but studying the source code, one can't help wonder if somewhere
: inside there is a small device driver struggling to get out...
wscons runs on more than just those systems and is a better match to
the hardware abstractions in the non-vga world.
Warner
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John Hay
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 8
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:52 am Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
| Quote: | :
: >A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all
: >the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change
: >without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit.
:
: Agreed.
Actually, the input multiplexing is what interests me. The one or
more keyboards part in my description means one or more at the same
time... There are likewise a number of issues relating to usb
mice/keyboards that are much better in uhid from NetBSD than from
FreeBSD.
|
It would also be very nice if you could run multiple instances of it,
so that you could hook multiple screens, keyboards and mice onto a
machine and have more than one person work on it simultaneously. :-)
John
--
John Hay -- John.Hay@meraka.csir.co.za / jhay@FreeBSD.org
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John Baldwin
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 278
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:25 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
On Thursday 27 October 2005 02:47 pm, Peter Wemm wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday 27 October 2005 10:07 am, Gordon Bergling wrote:
* Thus spake M. Warner Losh (imp@bsdimp.com):
In message: <20051027134919.GA858@node26.0xfce3.net
Gordon Bergling <gbergling@0xfce3.net> writes:
: * Thus spake Poul-Henning Kamp (phk@phk.freebsd.dk):
: > In message <20051027133336.GA740@node26.0xfce3.net>, Gordon
Bergling writes:
: > >I am currently working on project, which refactors a lot of
: > > FreeBSDs console code.
:
: > Sorry for nitpicking, but just to make sure we're clear about
: > what we talk about here:
:
: > When you say "console", do you mean
: > "vga+keyboard" ?
: > or
: > "printf(9) destination" ?
: > or
: > "/dev/console" ?
: > or all of the above ?
:
: What I mean was 'all of the above'. My projects aims to modernize
: FreeBSDs console in a big picture. That whould range from
: "simple" vga + keyboard to a possible machine indepent
: framebuffer API.
wscons in NetBSD can be a console (as in /dev/console) destination.
Much like sio(4) can be a console in FreeBSD. However, it is
really a framework for integrating one or more frame buffers (vga),
with zero or more keyboards and mice into a coherent input system.
It is more of a syscons replacement than a solution to the
'console' issues that you've been keen on working out.
With other words, its something desireable to have at FreeBSD?
A syscons replacement isn't such an enticing deal if it still leaves all
the 'console' issues. Changing something for the sake of change
without fixing the problems just causes transition pain for no benefit.
Don't forget, we have to deal with the Xservers as well. Also things
like libvgl. syscons, with all its warts, runs on i386, amd64, alpha,
sparc64 and there are patches to make it work on ia64 around somewhere.
It works with multiple mice and (supposedly) multiple keyboards, but
that is more a function of external drivers (sysmouse and kbdmux etc).
I think a wscons port was attempted before, early in the sparc64 days,
but I don't remember that clearly.
|
It is _really_ grotty on all but i386 and amd64 though. It would be nice to
have a syscons replacement that truly does work well with framebuffers and
isn't VGA centric. I think phk's console concerns are rather orthogonal to
syscons vs. wscons.
| Quote: | Things that are personally crucial to me:
* Speed. (syscons is lightning fast)
* text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works.
* cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect
compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work.
|
* truly supports framebuffers as well as displays that can render text
directly (i.e. VGA, EGA, etc.)
* allows displays, keyboards, and mice to be tied together in arbitrary
combinations such that each "console" can consist of zero-or-more
displays, keyboards, and mice with well-defined behavior for what
state is shared vs. private when multiple objects of the same class
are connected to a single console.
--
John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org
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Sergey Babkin
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
| Quote: | From: John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org
Things that are personally crucial to me:
* Speed. (syscons is lightning fast)
* text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works.
* cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect
compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work.
* truly supports framebuffers as well as displays that can render text
directly (i.e. VGA, EGA, etc.)
* allows displays, keyboards, and mice to be tied together in arbitrary
combinations such that each "console" can consist of zero-or-more
displays, keyboards, and mice with well-defined behavior for what
state is shared vs. private when multiple objects of the same class
are connected to a single console.
|
And by default connects all the keyboards/mice to
the first console. This makes the installs on
the machines with USB-only keyboard transparent.
* When entering panic/debugger mode the console
should reset its video mode to the one where
the panic information is visible.
-SB
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John Baldwin
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 278
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
On Friday 28 October 2005 01:24 pm, Sergey Babkin wrote:
| Quote: | From: John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org
Things that are personally crucial to me:
* Speed. (syscons is lightning fast)
* text mode mouse cursor with cut/paste that Just Works.
* cursor movement control code compatibility. No less than perfect
compatibility is good enough! The cons25 termcap entry has to work.
* truly supports framebuffers as well as displays that can render text
directly (i.e. VGA, EGA, etc.)
* allows displays, keyboards, and mice to be tied together in arbitrary
combinations such that each "console" can consist of zero-or-more
displays, keyboards, and mice with well-defined behavior for what
state is shared vs. private when multiple objects of the same class
are connected to a single console.
And by default connects all the keyboards/mice to
the first console. This makes the installs on
the machines with USB-only keyboard transparent.
|
Yes.
| Quote: | * When entering panic/debugger mode the console
should reset its video mode to the one where
the panic information is visible.
|
I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know what X has done
to the hardware unless you make X talk to the console driver to do
everything.
--
John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org
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Joseph Koshy
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 7
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Peter Wemm
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 11 Apr 2002
Posts: 113
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
On Friday 28 October 2005 11:59 am, Joseph Koshy wrote:
| Quote: | I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know
what X has done to the hardware unless you make X talk to the
console driver to do everything.
How does MS implement their BSOD display mode?
|
They have device drivers from the vendors for each piece of hardware to
change the display modes.
--
Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com
"All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5
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John Baldwin
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Mar 2002
Posts: 278
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:27 pm Post subject:
Re: wscons for FreeBSD?
|
|
|
On Friday 28 October 2005 02:59 pm, Joseph Koshy wrote:
| Quote: | I think this might be kind of hard since you really don't know
what X has done to the hardware unless you make X talk to the
console driver to do everything.
How does MS implement their BSOD display mode?
|
Their graphics driver stuff is in the kernel and not a separate user process
like X?
--
John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org> <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org
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