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Dag-Erling Smorgrav
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 110
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 Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 7:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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"David O'Brien" <obrien@freebsd.org> writes:
| Quote: | PAM modules used to not be versioned, however starting in -CURRENT
with OpenPAM they are now versioned. Also, unlike all other shared
objects, -CURRENT PAM modules do not have a non-versioned `.so'
symlink (nor will they ever). Thus it is safe to put all the
pam_*.so (non-versioned) into compat4x and our users' lives will be
easier.
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Absolutely correct, and my apologies for not stating this clearly.
DES
--
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org
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M. Warner Losh
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 365
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:41 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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In message: <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org>
Makoto Matsushita <matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> writes:
: How do you think about this, des? I don't want to talk about xdm/pam
: breakage or something like that; I want to talk about (backward
: compatibility?) issues for startx users.
Timing Solutions, my employer, has several systems that boot into X11
w/o xdm, but instead by using startx as non-root user. It would be
desriable for that functionality to remain as we move forward versions
of X11 that are in our products.
Warner
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Terry Lambert
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 10:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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David O'Brien wrote:
| Quote: | I can't recall receiving a bug report from you.
^^^
^Wpatch
that would add back the granular menu of what X bits one wants to
install. Or any other sysinstall patch that asks the user if they would
like the Xwrapper installed.
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Uh...
Isn't this like removing "ls" or otherwise damaging the base
functionality of the system, and then asking for a patch to add
a menu item to sysinstall to get that functionality back?
Don't get me wrong: I understand that the reason it was done
was to provide increased security... but... security is always
a trade-off between usability for authorised and unauthorized
users.
-- Terry
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David O'Brien
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 8:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:50:01PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
| Quote: | "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.org> writes:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
"David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.org> writes:
I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is
there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM?
PAM modules *are* versioned.
Uh, where??
In -CURRENT.
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As I've asked you many times in the past, I cannot understand your
desires from your _once_ sentance responces. This is the biggest thing
that makes it almost impossible for me to work with you.
Why can't you say something like:
PAM modules used to not be versioned, however starting in -CURRENT
with OpenPAM they are now versioned. Also, unlike all other shared
objects, -CURRENT PAM modules do not have a non-versioned `.so'
symlink (nor will they ever). Thus it is safe to put all the
pam_*.so (non-versioned) into compat4x and our users' lives will be
easier.
[The above is my guess of the situation from some poking around. BUT
what would have been nice if you could have provided being the PAM expert
of the moment.]
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Bruce Evans
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Makoto Matsushita wrote:
| Quote: | Let me clarify the point again:
Background:
1) In XFree86 3.x, the non-root users of startx(1) kick X
server without any setups, since X server is a setuid binary.
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The X server is not setuid in XFree86 3.3.6, and IIRC it was not setuid
in a couple of earlier versions.
Bruce
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Dag-Erling Smorgrav
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:50 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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"David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.org> writes:
| Quote: | On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
"David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.org> writes:
I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is
there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM?
PAM modules *are* versioned.
Uh, where??
|
In -CURRENT.
DES
--
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org
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David O'Brien
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
| Quote: | "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.org> writes:
I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is
there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM?
PAM modules *are* versioned.
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Uh, where??
ref4:/usr/lib> ls pam*
pam_cleartext_pass_ok.so pam_radius.so
pam_deny.so pam_skey.so
pam_krb5.so pam_ssh.so
pam_opie.so pam_tacplus.so
pam_permit.so pam_unix.so
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Dag-Erling Smorgrav
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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"David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.org> writes:
| Quote: | I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is
there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM?
|
PAM modules *are* versioned.
DES
--
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org
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David O'Brien
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:51:50PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
| Quote: | The long-term fix to allow people to upgrade painlessly from -STABLE
to -CURRENT is to include -STABLE's PAM library and modules in
compat4x. I've asked David to do this several times, with no success.
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And I asked for some needed clarification, but never heard back.
Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:32:14 -0700
To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@ofug.org>
Cc: Doug Barton <DougB@FreeBSD.org>, John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>,
current@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: xdm broken on current
..snip..
I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is
there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM?
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Doug Barton
*nix forums addict
Joined: 24 Apr 2002
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 6:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
| Quote: | The long-term fix to allow people to upgrade painlessly from -STABLE
to -CURRENT is to include -STABLE's PAM library and modules in
compat4x. I've asked David to do this several times, with no success.
|
Well, I tried adding my 4.x pam stuff and libc[_r].so.4 to
/usr/lib/compat on my -current system, and it didn't work. Then I
included my /etc/pam.conf from 4.x, still no joy. Thus, I didn't poke
David very hard to include it, since I didn't see much point.
If you have any other suggestions on things to try, I'll be happy to
help.
Doug
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Brooks Davis
*nix forums addict
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 03:55:15AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
| Quote: | Alfred Perlstein <bright@mu.org> writes:
Not having 'startx' or having a 'startx' that doesn't work is
really a bad idea. It _will_ annoy users.
Only users who haven't yet entered the 90s and discovered xdm.
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I don't run X using xdm because doing so means /usr is always busy and
thus you can't do a "mount -ru /usr" before loading a module thus saving
a lot of time on boot if the module panics the system. This is
especialy critical on my laptop where fsck takes 5-10 minutes on /usr.
Backgroups fsck is a real savior, but it's still a pain.
-- Brooks
--
Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE.
PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 |
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Dag-Erling Smorgrav
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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Doug Barton <DougB@FreeBSD.org> writes:
| Quote: | Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
Doug Barton <DougB@FreeBSD.org> writes:
Or users for whom xdm isn't possible because the pam libraries in
-current are buggered.
I can't recall receiving a bug report from you.
Then you have a really bad memory.  You're one of the ones that told
me that it was "necessary" to break binay compat with 4.x for <some
silly reason> so I was SOL with the X 4.2 I downloaded from Xfree's web
site. Now, recompiling isn't even an option because X won't compile on
-current... yippee!
|
I'm afraid you're the one with a bad memory, then - I distinctly
remember explaining to you *why* you were having problems with xdm and
PAM. To summarize, you were running a version of X built on -STABLE
on a version of -CURRENT where the -STABLE PAM library and modules had
been clobbered with a version that wouldn't coexist with -STABLE's
libc. This problem has existed on -CURRENT since long before I
started working on PAM, and part of my work has been to implement PAM
module versioning so this problem wouldn't occur in the future.
The long-term fix to allow people to upgrade painlessly from -STABLE
to -CURRENT is to include -STABLE's PAM library and modules in
compat4x. I've asked David to do this several times, with no success.
If you still claim that "the pam libraries in -current are buggered",
you're going to have to back it up with solid evidence.
DES
--
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org
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Doug Barton
*nix forums addict
Joined: 24 Apr 2002
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:49 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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David O'Brien wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:26:49AM +0900, Makoto Matsushita wrote:
Current situations:
3) The startx users think that XFree86 4.2 is broken, X server
can't start. FreeBSD bundles XFree86 4.2. As a result,
they says "Latest FreeBSD's X server is broken."
How to solve:
4a) Write documents, to explain that "startx users should
install X wrapper separately, since sysinstall doesn't
automatically install the wrapper."
4b) Install X wrapper after XFree86 installation is finished.
4c) Add X wrapper itself into XFree86 meta-port.
4d) Do nothing.
Current situation is 4d), I propose 4b) in the last email, and some
others suggests 4c).
You will have the same problem with `pkg_add -r XFree86' if you choose
"4b". That is why I am opposed to only handling it in Sysinstall.
In addition to "4c", the granular menu of X bits one wishes to install
needs to be re-added. I tried this, but either bugs in libdialog or my
knowledge of its API caused me to fail in the short time I had to do the
XF4 changes this before 4.6.
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Well, I just fixed a bug in the textbox part of dialog(1), if that helps
you any. I also thought of another point... even if we see using xdm
as a "better" solution than startx, users will still need to be able to
startx in order to get their X configuration nice and tidy before they
try xdm. So, I'm still in favor of installing the wrapper with the X
install. I'd rather educate the few users who know they won't need it to
delete it after the install, rather than take the (legitimate)
complaints from those who need it, but don't have it.
Doug
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David O'Brien
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:41 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:26:49AM +0900, Makoto Matsushita wrote:
| Quote: | Current situations:
3) The startx users think that XFree86 4.2 is broken, X server
can't start. FreeBSD bundles XFree86 4.2. As a result,
they says "Latest FreeBSD's X server is broken."
How to solve:
4a) Write documents, to explain that "startx users should
install X wrapper separately, since sysinstall doesn't
automatically install the wrapper."
4b) Install X wrapper after XFree86 installation is finished.
4c) Add X wrapper itself into XFree86 meta-port.
4d) Do nothing.
Current situation is 4d), I propose 4b) in the last email, and some
others suggests 4c).
|
You will have the same problem with `pkg_add -r XFree86' if you choose
"4b". That is why I am opposed to only handling it in Sysinstall.
In addition to "4c", the granular menu of X bits one wishes to install
needs to be re-added. I tried this, but either bugs in libdialog or my
knowledge of its API caused me to fail in the short time I had to do the
XF4 changes this before 4.6.
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David O'Brien
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Jun 2002
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:38 pm Post subject:
Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not?
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On Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 10:51:27PM -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote:
| Quote: | : Only users who haven't yet entered the 90s and discovered xdm.
I think this attitude is not helpful.
|
Agreed. I have never, ever used xdm and even disable dtlogin on Solaris.
I have always started X manually and intend to always do that. On a
development system it is just a PITA to not be in this level of control.
Mechanism, not policy.
| Quote: | I can't recall receiving a bug report from you.
^^^ |
^Wpatch
that would add back the granular menu of what X bits one wants to
install. Or any other sysinstall patch that asks the user if they would
like the Xwrapper installed.
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