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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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 Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 7:10 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Thorpe" <gat7634@hotmail.com>
| Quote: | How about making all this easier by advocating a move to System
V-styled
init and rc? It is much more centralized, flexible and reconfigurable,
but
of course lacks the 'BSD-original sign of approval'.
|
I spend 2 years choosing the best OS for my server and personal use,
the first choice was between Windows vs Unix,
then Linux vs BSD
and then Openbsd vs FreeBSD.
Now I have read and learned a great deal about FreeBSD and I'm not
leaving! I really love this OS! ;-)
Do you find it logical that all the ftp config files are floating around
in /etc? Together with sendmail and other config files?
I am just talking about cleaning up in /etc.
I have learned about the different files, but for the sake of future
users and our self we should do this. Don't get me wrong, I will always
think of FreeBSD as a server system and I wish for a small base system,
but when more daemons and other programs is added, this problem is only
going to get worse.
The other things I was talking about was more power over the daemons, by
controlling the answers, commands and what it should log and where to
log it. Also a main user access, daemon startup and maybe main
(network?) log-conf file.
In FreeBSD 5.0 the kernel has moved to /boot, so why not continue this
clean up with daemons?
br
db
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:00 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Thorpe" <gat7634@hotmail.com>
| Quote: | I do agree that making an /etc/daemon directory to store daemon
configuration files is probably a good thing to do. A SysV-style init
would
help with this though. Also, I am sure people will want to distinguish
between 'core' daemons and user-added ones external to the base.
|
I don't know anything about the SysV-style, but yes the core/base
daemons and the user/port daemons should be kept apart!
br
db
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:13 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Thorpe" <gat7634@hotmail.com>
| Quote: | How about making all this easier by advocating a move to System
V-styled
init and rc? It is much more centralized, flexible and reconfigurable,
but
of course lacks the 'BSD-original sign of approval'.
|
By this I thought you meant I should move to System V*GG* Therefore my
reply about I am here to stay (in the FreeBSD world) :-)
But that does the other subscribers think?
I am learning about FreeBSD, assembly, C/C++, sockets, security and
other stuff as fast as I can, but I am not a good enough programmer to
make these changes or join the development team.
I help in the FreeBSD world the best I can, by telling people about
FreeBSD, helping people on usenet and the maillingslists and soon
writting about securing FreeBSD. But what I can do is this, come with
suggestions how the system can be improved.
br
db
br
db
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Terry Lambert
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:17 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
| Quote: | From: "Gary Thorpe" <gat7634@hotmail.com
I do agree that making an /etc/daemon directory to store daemon
configuration files is probably a good thing to do. A SysV-style init
would
help with this though. Also, I am sure people will want to distinguish
between 'core' daemons and user-added ones external to the base.
I don't know anything about the SysV-style, but yes the core/base
daemons and the user/port daemons should be kept apart!
|
If they weren't, then all daemons might as well be ports,
have package registrations, and be easily replaceable and/or
removable for small footprint installations.
And without our bimonthly "why is sendmail there by default?"
flame-fest, where would we be?
-- Terry
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:32 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Lambert" <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
| Quote: | Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
I don't know anything about the SysV-style, but yes the core/base
daemons and the user/port daemons should be kept apart!
If they weren't, then all daemons might as well be ports,
have package registrations, and be easily replaceable and/or
removable for small footprint installations.
And without our bimonthly "why is sendmail there by default?"
flame-fest, where would we be?
|
Well maybe create a daemons system. Something like ports but only with
daemons, then all daemons work the same way (regarding where they place
the files and what they are called and "what" is in them). Then no
daemons it there by default, but when they are installed they all act
and look like base daemons?
Or something like that......maybe the daemon "ports" should not have 3
ftp server to choose from, but then services like sendmail it not there
by default.
Terry, what do you think about the /etc/daemons/ suggestion? and the
other things about logging, user access file and so on?
br
db
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Andre Oppermann
*nix forums addict
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:41 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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Daniel, Terry, whoever,
Please move this discussion from -arch to -chat. F'upt set.
Thanks
--
Andre
Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Lambert" <tlambert2@mindspring.com
Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
I don't know anything about the SysV-style, but yes the core/base
daemons and the user/port daemons should be kept apart!
If they weren't, then all daemons might as well be ports,
have package registrations, and be easily replaceable and/or
removable for small footprint installations.
And without our bimonthly "why is sendmail there by default?"
flame-fest, where would we be?
Well maybe create a daemons system. Something like ports but only with
daemons, then all daemons work the same way (regarding where they place
the files and what they are called and "what" is in them). Then no
daemons it there by default, but when they are installed they all act
and look like base daemons?
Or something like that......maybe the daemon "ports" should not have 3
ftp server to choose from, but then services like sendmail it not there
by default.
Terry, what do you think about the /etc/daemons/ suggestion? and the
other things about logging, user access file and so on?
br
db
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with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:46 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Blankensteiner" <db@traceroute.dk>
| Quote: | Well maybe create a daemons system. Something like ports but only with
daemons, then all daemons work the same way (regarding where they
place
the files and what they are called and "what" is in them). Then no
daemons it there by default, but when they are installed they all act
and look like base daemons?
Or something like that......maybe the daemon "ports" should not have 3
ftp server to choose from, but then services like sendmail it not
there
by default.
|
I don't know how many network daemons are in the base system now, but
this could lead to more base daemons and also reduce the base system,
because they are not there by default.
br
db
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 9:53 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Oppermann" <oppermann@pipeline.ch>
| Quote: | Daniel, Terry, whoever,
Please move this discussion from -arch to -chat. F'upt set.
|
Is this not the right group to dissuss the FreeBSD design?
freebsd-chat is certainly not.
Then tell me, if I want to create a debate about changing /etc where do
I write to?
br
db
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Terry Lambert
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 11:04 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
| Quote: | Terry, what do you think about the /etc/daemons/ suggestion? and the
other things about logging, user access file and so on?
|
I think it's a bad idea to move to per program configuration
files. I am reminded of "*.INI" in Windows 3.11.
I also think it's bad to put things under /etc, since I think
/etc should be read-only. I think that eventually, we will
see all such things live under /var.
I think it's an especially bad idea to put configuration data
into files in subdirectories of /etc. I wouldn't have sent the
configuration patches to the bind 9 folks, if I liked the
factory defaults.  .
I just wish that "flash" had caught on more, when the limiting
factor was the number of times that it could be written, and
the footprint of the resulting system.
-- Terry
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Terry Lambert
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Posts: 434
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 11:08 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
| Quote: | From: "Andre Oppermann" <oppermann@pipeline.ch
Daniel, Terry, whoever,
Please move this discussion from -arch to -chat. F'upt set.
Is this not the right group to dissuss the FreeBSD design?
freebsd-chat is certainly not.
Then tell me, if I want to create a debate about changing /etc where do
I write to?
|
He was being less polite than I was.
He's saying he likes things just fine the way they are, and so
there's no need to discuss them.
I'm saying that this has been discussed to death, the conclusion
is a given, and that Eric Melville and others are already on it,
so you should either get with them, or look at the archives to
see how your discussion will end.
-- Terry
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Mike Barcroft
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 11:09 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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Daniel Blankensteiner <db@traceroute.dk> writes:
| Quote: | Do you find it logical that all the ftp config files are floating around
in /etc? Together with sendmail and other config files?
I am just talking about cleaning up in /etc.
|
We usually start creating directories in /etc after we have several
configuration files to put there. For instance: /etc/namedb/,
/etc/mail/, /etc/ssh/. It might not be a bad idea to create an
/etc/ftpd/.
Best regards,
Mike Barcroft
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Andrew Reilly
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 26 Apr 2002
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 11:32 pm Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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On Fri, 2002-05-31 at 01:45, Daniel Blankensteiner wrote:
| Quote: | I mean by making the system more logical organized/structured and thereby
more
well-arranged, this should lead to a more easy to configure and thereby
more secure system, without reducing the power and opportunities
of the system. I am talking about giving daemons special treatment.
|
You should check out the sysutils/daemontools port. It gets a _lot_
right, in my opinion. OK, you have to tweak it so that log files go
into /var/log/foo-service/ instead of /etc/foo-service/log/main/, but
that's not hard to do.
Even the configuration mechanism (envdir: set environment variables
according to the contents of files in the named directory) is neat.
Thats part of the blurry line between the design of the daemons
themselves and the control framework, I guess.
Multilog handles log file rotation naturally, without having to
interrupt the daemon to tell it to close and re-open the file.
Process signalling without needing write access to /var/run, (to write a
PID file), so daemons can run as non-root users and not require looking
their process number up with ps in order to send them a signal.
Many good design ideas.
--
Andrew
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Dag-Erling Smorgrav
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 4:48 am Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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Mike Barcroft <mike@freebsd.org> writes:
| Quote: | We usually start creating directories in /etc after we have several
configuration files to put there. For instance: /etc/namedb/,
/etc/mail/, /etc/ssh/. It might not be a bad idea to create an
/etc/ftpd/.
|
/etc/ftpusers is (ab)used by much more than just ftpd.
DES
--
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 7:27 am Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Lambert" <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
To: "Daniel Blankensteiner" <db@traceroute.dk>
| Quote: | I also think it's bad to put things under /etc, since I think
/etc should be read-only. I think that eventually, we will
see all such things live under /var.
|
I am only talk about config files, the binaries and log should not be in
here.
br
b
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Daniel Blankensteiner
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 May 2002
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 7:31 am Post subject:
Re: FreeBSD daemon configurations redesign
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Barcroft" <mike@freebsd.org>
To: "Daniel Blankensteiner" <db@traceroute.dk>
| Quote: | Daniel Blankensteiner <db@traceroute.dk> writes:
Do you find it logical that all the ftp config files are floating
around
in /etc? Together with sendmail and other config files?
I am just talking about cleaning up in /etc.
We usually start creating directories in /etc after we have several
configuration files to put there. For instance: /etc/namedb/,
/etc/mail/, /etc/ssh/. It might not be a bad idea to create an
/etc/ftpd/.
|
Glad you agree on that :-)
br
db
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