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Z
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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 Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Bob Koehler wrote:
| Quote: | In article <vBtQd.7120$3h3.384@fe03.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
Examples of well-named VMS commands, such as "PRINT," does not refute
the claim that plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and layered product
command are not intuitive.
Exceptions prove the rule. Didn't we all learn that in elementary
school?
The point being that most VMS commands are intuitve to the English
speaker and most UNIX commands are not intuitive to anyone.
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I'm not arguing that point, Bob.
It doesn't matter to me if the name is grep or SEARCH or FIND ... once I
I know it, I know it ... what matters to me is that grep (and egrep), by
simple virtue of regular expression syntax, are much more capable than
SEARCH.
Regular expressions are so useful (IMO, YMMV) for searching that I
frequently end up in Perl just to get access to them. |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <vBtQd.7120$3h3.384@fe03.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
| Quote: |
Examples of well-named VMS commands, such as "PRINT," does not refute
the claim that plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and layered product
command are not intuitive.
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Exceptions prove the rule. Didn't we all learn that in elementary
school?
The point being that most VMS commands are intuitve to the English
speaker and most UNIX commands are not intuitive to anyone.
After you've learned them they may seem simple enough, but after
intensive use of UNIX for over a decade I still don't recall when
to -r and when to -R. |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <37f0k0F4or9b5U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
| Quote: | In article <akv9B3+zWRHg@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter
options, but the long one's are also available for those who want
the exercise for their fingers.
I think you're confusing gnu with UNIX.
Call it whatever you want. The utilities, as they are currently
being written by numerous developers around the world, offer the
features I mentioned above. If HPUX or AIX prefer to only offer
the old single letter options that does not prevent a sys admin
from offering the more useful versions. All the current Linux
and BSD versions have them.
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Purists will tell us that Linux is a Posix compliant OS, not UNIX.
gnu of course, is not UNIX by definition. And anything gnu can do it
has probably already been ported to VMS. So citing gnu specific
features as "UNIX" is fundamentlly incorrect. |
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Dave Weatherall
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:03 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:15:17 UTC, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-7JdXurGcY1i5@dave2_os2.home.ours>,
"Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes:
I do get your point. On the other hand to be submitting you'd have to
know something about Batch queues. When you have that and you've been
taught that jobs are submitted to batch queues, the command becomes
intuitive.
Ummmm..... Thingfs don't "become" intuitive when you learn about
them, they become learned.
intuitive adj 1: spontaneously derived from or prompted by a natural
tendency; "an intuitive revulsion" 2: obtained through intuition
rather than from reasoning or observation [syn: {nonrational}, {visceral}]
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Well I see what you mean, particularly since you quote the dictionary
 That said, if I've learned about how VMS batch queues operate but
never been taught the actual DCL verb to start a task on one, when
I'm asked what I expect the verb to be, is guessing SUBMIT reasoning
or 'intuition'?
Now I'll agree that, by the dictionary definition quoted, it's the
former. However, by the common use applied in describing user
interfaces in our enevironment, one might well describe it intuitive.
| Quote: | I assume (don't know) that the same is true for using, I
believe, cron on Unix.
Cron is the background task that manages scheduled jobs, not a user
command.
Maybe then, 'at' also becomes intuitive. As
ever, everything depends on the context.
Nothing about the user interface of computers is intuititve. Apple
tried to claim (in the early days when the Mac was new) that the use
of the mouse was somehow "intuitive". That didn't turn out to be
particularly true either. Thus the reason they included a game
(puzzle) as part of the base system to get people to fiddle with
the mouse till they felt comfortable with it. No one sits down at
any computer for the first time and is immediately productive. It
takes time to learn the basics of the system and no system is naturally
easier to learn than any other. In most cases, "mother duck" syndrome
applies and whichever system one first becomes comfortable with will
become their favorite. (unless something occurs to turn them against
it, like proselytizing!)
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Agreed. Maybe it really is just a case of the computer industry
mis-using/bending the language, for technical or marketing reasons.
--
Cheers - Dave W. |
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Z
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Bob Koehler wrote:
| Quote: | The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layered
product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of
VMS exposure.
Right, nobody would ever think of using "PRINT" to print a file,
"SEARCH" to search it, or "/LOG" to mean the same thing on every
command that has it.
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Examples of well-named VMS commands, such as "PRINT," does not refute
the claim that plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and layered product
command are not intuitive. |
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Bill Gunshannon
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1019
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <akv9B3+zWRHg@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
| Quote: | In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter
options, but the long one's are also available for those who want
the exercise for their fingers.
I think you're confusing gnu with UNIX.
|
Call it whatever you want. The utilities, as they are currently
being written by numerous developers around the world, offer the
features I mentioned above. If HPUX or AIX prefer to only offer
the old single letter options that does not prevent a sys admin
from offering the more useful versions. All the current Linux
and BSD versions have them.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:28 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
| Quote: |
Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter
options, but the long one's are also available for those who want
the exercise for their fingers.
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I think you're confusing gnu with UNIX. |
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Nigel Barker
*nix forums addict
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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On 15 Feb 2005 09:18:26 -0600, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
In article <4210e9f3.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,
martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:
But then, you can't abbreviate those on *ix - an awful lot of typing, that.
Boy, you just can't win. First they were too short, now there are
no abbreviations.
Full spellings are for documentation and newcomers, making a clear
English indication of the purpose of the command or qualifier.
Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter
options, but the long one's are also available for those who want
the exercise for their fingers.
Is there a uniform abbreviation scheme where the first couple letters
of the full command or qualifier will suffice ? It is attractive to
learn one system and then abbreviate at will.
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MUMPS aka DSM11 allowed almost all commands to be reduced to one letter which
meant there were actually only 25 commands plus the Zx commands e.g. ZA, ZD etc
It could become awfully cryptic.
--
Nigel Barker
Live from the sunny Cote d'Azur |
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Larry Kilgallen
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 729
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <37ee1mF5c71e8U1@individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
| Quote: | In article <4210e9f3.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,
martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:
But then, you can't abbreviate those on *ix - an awful lot of typing, that.
Boy, you just can't win. First they were too short, now there are
no abbreviations.
|
Full spellings are for documentation and newcomers, making a clear
English indication of the purpose of the command or qualifier.
| Quote: | Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter
options, but the long one's are also available for those who want
the exercise for their fingers.
|
Is there a uniform abbreviation scheme where the first couple letters
of the full command or qualifier will suffice ? It is attractive to
learn one system and then abbreviate at will. |
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Bill Gunshannon
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1019
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <4210e9f3.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>,
martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:
| Quote: | Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:
"Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:
And UNIX arguments are not even worth a comparison of intuitiveness'
compared to VMS qualifiers.
Again, matter of opinion. It should be noted, however, that this is
changing, even as we speak. More and more Unix commands today have
full word qualifiers as well as the typical single letter one's many
of us ar familiar with and like. :-)
For example:
[cpio with long options snipped]
But then, you can't abbreviate those on *ix - an awful lot of typing, that.
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Boy, you just can't win. First they were too short, now there are
no abbreviations.
Actually, you are free to continue to use the original one letter
options, but the long one's are also available for those who want
the exercise for their fingers.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <1110flaef3srr2a@corp.supernews.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
| Quote: |
What you're doing is changing the default directory, and CHANGE
DIRECTORY is quite defining. As for the fact that it's just CD on most
systems, well, how about a show of hands of those who do NOT have a
symbol SD as a shortcut for SET DEFAULT.
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You have a UNIX shell which implements "change directory"? All mine
know only the cryptic "cd". |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <1108346839.34146d4f8a683082b835bdf2db61de6d@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:
| Quote: | out of curiosity, what does "dog" do in Unix ????
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That, of course, depends on which UNIX you bought. Unless you
install gdog, which of course also runs on VMS. |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
| Quote: | I find it telling that you compare SUBMIT and at... consider why you
think "SUBMIT" makes more sense than "at" for runnng a task at some time
in the future and then go ask some one who doesn't know Unix or VMS
which command they think makes more sense.
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Which only goes to show that even UNIX can't get it wrong every time.
Except that SUBMIT does not require "some time in the future". |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <ILAPd.236$cn3.82@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
| Quote: | The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layered
product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of
VMS exposure.
|
Right, nobody would ever think of using "PRINT" to print a file,
"SEARCH" to search it, or "/LOG" to mean the same thing on every
command that has it. |
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Anthony Borla
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:29 am Post subject:
Re: regular expression support on OpenVMS (was Re: grep on openVMS?)
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"Peter Weaver" <WeaverConsultingServices@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:37c554F5bvirtU1@individual.net...
| Quote: | Craig A. Berry wrote:
...
/WILDCARD=TRADITIONAL (D)
/WILDCARD=REGEX
Or, if you prefer, PATTERN instead of WILDCARD. As
far as I can see, there is currently in SEARCH no capability
for matching file contents against patterns of any kind, even
traditional VMS wildcards.
...
V8.2 has added /WILDCARD_MATCHING to SEARCH.
Allowing us to use the * and the % in the search string.
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Definitely a move in the right direction, and good to see progress being
made  !
Cheers,
Anthony Borla |
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