|
|
|
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Dave Froble
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1172
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:09 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
Larry Kilgallen wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:
In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
!> David J Dachtera wrote:
!
!>> "rm" ... "DELETE"
!>> "vi" ... "EDIT"
!>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
If so, do you know of an operating system which provides a command
called CHANGE DIRECTORY ?
|
I'm going to reverse my earlier claim that all DCL verbs are better than
the unix commands. Well, somewhat.
What you're doing is changing the default directory, and CHANGE
DIRECTORY is quite defining. As for the fact that it's just CD on most
systems, well, how about a show of hands of those who do NOT have a
symbol SD as a shortcut for SET DEFAULT.
And yes, BACKUP is a computereze word, and not really real clear to an
english speaker.
But overall, I personally feel that DCL is clearer to an english speaker
than anything else. That makes me wonder whether the cryptic Unix
commands might actually be easier for a non-english speaker.
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dave Froble
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1172
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:11 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
Z wrote:
| Quote: | Larry Kilgallen wrote:
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of
your past VMS experience.
No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experience
with the English language. Those from some countries might not find that
helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from
the United States.
Really?
How often do you use the word SUBMIT when talking about something you
need to do in the future?
|
Picking out one example, and there is more than one, doesn't validate
your argument.
At least it is SETUP for setting up a job to run in the future.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JF Mezei
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 2556
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:33 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
Dave Froble wrote:
| Quote: | systems, well, how about a show of hands of those who do NOT have a
symbol SD as a shortcut for SET DEFAULT.
|
Hand raised and waving.
In fact, I remember taking my VMS system manager course and told by the
teacher about defining CD in SYLOGIN.COM. Never even heard of "SD" nor
would I ever think about trying this on VMS.
I know that SET DEF is the command to be used in command procedures to
ensure portabbility, but interactively, I never use it.
| Quote: | And yes, BACKUP is a computereze word, and not really real clear to an
english speaker.
|
My trusty PSION 3 PDA ( of early 1990s vintage) has a "Backup" and
"Restore" menu options. At one point, some of the computerese becomes
part of the common language. The 20th century was full of new words and
expressions which became in common use. Boot, Reboot, crash, computer,
disk drive. IBM expressions such as warm boot vs cold boot, DASD etc
never really caught on though.
| Quote: | But overall, I personally feel that DCL is clearer to an english speaker
than anything else. That makes me wonder whether the cryptic Unix
commands might actually be easier for a non-english speaker.
|
Where DCL shines versus Unix is with qualifiers. With VMS, you can still
understand a command you're not too familiar with or don't use often.
But with Unix, you need to look up the MAN page for thatc ommand to get
the real meaning of all the switches. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave Weatherall
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 108
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:03 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 03:01:11 UTC, Z <Z@no.spam> wrote:
| Quote: | Larry Kilgallen wrote:
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experience
with the English language. Those from some countries might not find that
helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from
the United States.
Really?
How often do you use the word SUBMIT when talking about something you
need to do in the future?
|
I do get your point. On the other hand to be submitting you'd have to
know something about Batch queues. When you have that and you've been
taught that jobs are submitted to batch queues, the command becomes
intuitive. I assume (don't know) that the same is true for using, I
believe, cron on Unix. Maybe then, 'at' also becomes intuitive. As
ever, everything depends on the context.
--
Cheers - Dave W. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dave Weatherall
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 108
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:03 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:46:25 UTC, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford
J. Hamilton) wrote:
| Quote: | In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
!> David J Dachtera wrote:
!
!>> "rm" ... "DELETE"
!>> "vi" ... "EDIT"
!>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
|
Devil's answer. Not always.
CD on a DOS-based command line means 'change directory on the device
specified'. Most people use it as if it were like DCL's SET DEFAULT,
however. Consider :-
c:> cd wally
That would change the current directory in use on C: to c:\..\wally
and by coincidence that's where you'd be working (default directory).
c:> cd d:\wally
That would change the current directory in use on D: to d:\wally but
you'd still be in c: somwhere. You're default directory has not
changed. In fact to get there you need to :-
c:> d:
I offer no claims about Unix or MAC's.
--
Cheers - Dave W. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Sture
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:36 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
Larry Kilgallen wrote:
| Quote: | In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
David J Dachtera wrote:
"rm" ... "DELETE"
"vi" ... "EDIT"
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
"cat" ... "TYPE"
"man" ... "HELP"
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experience
with the English language. Those from some countries might not find that
helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from
the United States.
|
And the qualifiers and meanings thereof are consistent across utilities
on VMS.
Anyone remember the subtle differences between the PDP utilities across
RT-11, RSTS and RSX? I know I was once caught out by the fact that /Q
for query (/CONFIRM on VMS) was the default on RT-11 PIP, but not on RSTS. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Sture
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:41 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:
<snip>
| Quote: | !>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"
BATCH would be more intuitive here.
|
But if you came from a mainframe background, SUBMIT was better. cf DOS
..BAT files which can be submitted by the AT command on NT, or run
interactively. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul Sture
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 357
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:47 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
Dave Froble wrote:
| Quote: | Larry Kilgallen wrote:
In article <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>,
hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:
In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
!> David J Dachtera wrote:
!
!>> "rm" ... "DELETE"
!>> "vi" ... "EDIT"
!>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
If so, do you know of an operating system which provides a command
called CHANGE DIRECTORY ?
I'm going to reverse my earlier claim that all DCL verbs are better than
the unix commands. Well, somewhat.
What you're doing is changing the default directory, and CHANGE
DIRECTORY is quite defining. As for the fact that it's just CD on most
systems, well, how about a show of hands of those who do NOT have a
symbol SD as a shortcut for SET DEFAULT.
And yes, BACKUP is a computereze word, and not really real clear to an
english speaker.
But overall, I personally feel that DCL is clearer to an english speaker
than anything else. That makes me wonder whether the cryptic Unix
commands might actually be easier for a non-english speaker.
|
Having started out my IT life with meaningless utility names (XPJC for
sort, XPCK for link on an ICL system, for example), I greatly
appreciated the early form of DCL which came with RT-11 and then the
better version with VMS. I do recall thinking it somewhat verbose at
first, but not only have my typing skills improved significantly since
the early days, but line transmission (think full screen editor over a
modem) and CPU speeds (think DCL execution time on early VAXen) have
increased greatly too.
But I came across an example of what you refer to just recently. Someone
was (IIRC not a native English speaker) saying that he _liked_ cryptic
commands because they were obviously computer instructions and saying
that Applescript on OS X was _too_ English like for him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alex Daniels
*nix forums addict
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 62
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:12 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
"Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message
news:cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net...
| Quote: | VMS is more intuitive than UNIX, but there are still some arbitrary
choices
here. I don't remember much of PRIMOS, but I think that some of the CL
was
yet more intuitive. bill g., care to comment?
|
Don't know about Bill, but I found PRIMOS to be very intuative, as I do VMS.
Of course most people hevily personailsed it with 'abbrev' anyway.
As for UNIX, well no it simply is not.
And UNIX arguments are not even worth a comparison of intuitiveness'
compared to VMS qualifiers.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (A)
ABBREV Allows users to create and use abbreviations for PRIMOS commands and
their arguments.
ASRCWD Used only with serial I/O; ASRCWD 0 recovers a diverted terminal line
from a serial printer, card reader or punch.
ASSIGN User gains complete control over a disk or peripheral device.
ATTACH Directory named by pathname, ufd-name, or name becomes the working
directory.
AVAIL Gives disk usage statistics for the current disk. With no argument,
gives current disk. With pathname, or with disk number, gives specified
disk. With * gives all started disks.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (B)
BASIC Runs the BASIC Language interpreter.
BASICV Runs the compiling, virtual-memory BASIC.
BASINP Loads non-Prime BASIC from paper tape into pathname
BATCH -DISPLAY Displays information on jobs being processed by the Batch
subsystem.
BATGEN Lists name and status for each Batch queue, or displays the
queuename, status, and characteristics for each queue.
BINARY Opens pathname for writing on file unit 3 for output. Equivalent to
OPEN pathname 3 2.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (C)
CLOSE Closes specified files and file units (except a COMOUTPUT file which
is closed by COMO -E)
CMPF Compares lines in up to five ASCII files, showing
insertions/changes/deletions from file-a.
CNAME Changes name of file or directory. CNAME requires owner status to the
directory.
COBOL Runs the COBOL compiler.
COMINPUT Reads command input from pathname instead of terminal. Input file
unit is 6 (default) unless funit is specified. CLOSE ALL will close the
COMINPUT file-unit causing the error message, "Unit not open. Cominput
(Input from terminal)".
COMOUTPUT Sends output stream to file specified by pathname or file opened
on unit '177. Not closed by CLOSE ALL.
CONCAT Combines a number of input files into an output file suitable for
spooling.
CPL Invokes the CPL interpreter and executes the CPL program named by
pathname.generate C flow graph
CPMPC Punches the file pathname on ASSIGNEed card reader/ punch 0 or 1. Does
not punch a $E end-of-file card.
CREATE Creates a new directory as specified by pathname, with blank owner
and zero non-owner passwords. The protection keys are set to 7 0
CRMPC Reads cards from parallel interface card reader 0 or 1 into file
specified by pathname. Cards are translated into ASCII.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (D)
DATE Displays the current date and time.
DBASIC Runs double-precision interpretive BASIC.
DBG Invokes the source level debugger.
DEFINE_GVAR Activates the named global variable file.
DELAY Sets terminal delay characteristics. Can be set prior to LOGIN.
DELETE Deletes pathname (either a file or an empty directory).
DELETE_VAR Deletes the named variables from an active global variable file.
Variable names may be wildcard names.
DELSEG Deassigns a segment. The ALL option releases all segments belonging
to user.
DMSTK The DMSTK command produces a call/return trace of the user's command
loop stack and Static Mode stack (if any).
PRIMOS COMMANDS (E)
ED Edits existing or new file.
EDB The binary editor is used for building and maintaining libraries of
subroutines.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (F)
F77 Invokes FORTRAN 77 compiler.
FILEMEM Clears contents of user address space to zeros for unsegmented
programs.
FILVER Compares two files. Prints out differances in octal.
FTN Invokes FORTRAN compiler.
FUTIL FUTIL is the interactive file manipulation utility. It responds with a
prompt character, >, and waits for sub-commands.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (H)
HDXSTAT Displays the current status of all lines and sites of a half duplex
(HDX) network configuration.
HPSD HPSD loads a version of PSD (Prime Symbolic Debugger) that is stored in
the upper portion of memory.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (I)
INPUT Opens pathname for reading on file unit 1. Equivilant to
OPEN filename 1 1
PRIMOS COMMANDS (J)
JOB Submits and controls jobs for Batch execution.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (L)
LABEL Creates an ANSI COBOL level 1 volume label on a magnetic tape or reads
an existing label. The magnetic tape unit must be ASSIGNed.
LATE Requests a time in 24-hour HHMM format at which the next command will
be processed. If the specified time is earlier than the current time,
execution is deferred until the following day. The terminal cannot be used
for any other purpose until after the time specified.
LISTF Displays current directory name, logical drive and names of all files,
sub-UFDs and segment directories in the current directory. Displays OWNER or
NONOWNer status for current directory.
LISTING Opens a file for writing on file unit 2. Equivalent to
OPEN pathname 2 2.
LIST_VAR Lists named variables and their values from an active global
variable file. Variable name may be wildcard names.
LOAD Invokes the Linking Loader. LOAD loads programs for R-mode code
generated by PMA, FORTRAM or RPGII. To load segmented code, use the command
SEG.
LOGIN Log in to specified ufdname.
LOGOUT Log out user or phantom user.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (M)
MAGNET MAGNET is an interactive magnetic tape utility that transfers
non-Prime-format magnetic tapes to and from PRIMOS disk files.
MAGRST Restores files, directory-trees or partitions from a magnetic tape
created with MAGSAV. The tape unit must be ASSIGNed.
MAGSAV Writes a PRIMOS disk file, directory-tree or partition to 7 or
9-track magnetic tape. The tape unit must be ASSIGNed.
MDL Memory dump/load to/from punched paper tape.
MESSAGE Waits for one line of text and sends it to operator's or another
user's console.
MRGF Merged up to five files into a single file.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (N)
NCOBOL Invokes the non-shared (R-mode) COBOL compiler.
NETLINK Connects user to any system on the Public Data Network.
NSED NSED is the non-shared version of the text editor.
NUMBER Numbers/re-numbers statements in a BASIC program.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (O)
OPEN Opens specified pathname on specified unit. Type of file and access
mode are specifed as well.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (P)
PASCAL Invokes the PASCAL compiler.
PASSWD Changes owner and non-owner passwords of current directory (only for
user attached as owner).
PHANTOM Runs the command file or CPL program specified as a phantom user.
PL1G Invokes the PL/1, Subset G, compiler.
PM Displays contents of RVEC user register vector.
PMA Invokes Prime's Macro Assembler.
PRERR Displays ERRVEC messages set by ERRSET and first six octal locations
in ERRVEC or prints ERRVEC and last error message. Obsolete
PRMPG Prints specified pathname on MPG parallel interface printer (PR0)
previously ASSIGNed.
PROP Tells users which printers and/or plotetrs are running, and what their
environments are.
PROTEC Sets protection rights on the specified pathname.
PRSER Prints the specified pathname on serial ineterface printer (CEN)
previously ASSIGNed.
PRVER Prints the specified pathname on a configured printer/ plotter.
PSD Invokes the Prime Symbolic Debugger.
PTCPY Duplicates and verifies paper tape, using the previously assigned
high-speed paper tape reader and paper tape punch.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (R)
RDY Allows users to choose prompt message to be displayed at their terminals
and in their COMOUTPUT files.
RESTOR Restores runfile contained in the specified pathname into memory.
RESUME Runs (restores and starts) external program contained in the
specified pathname.
RLS Discards unwanted stack history.
RPG Invokes the Prime RPGII Compiler.
RSTERM Empties the user terminal's input and/or output buffers.
RUNOFF Invokes Prime RUNOFF text processor.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (S)
SAVE Saves memory (segment '4000) from sa (start address) to ea (end
address) as a file.
SEG Invokes a utility for loading, modifying, running, and sharing segmented
(V-mode) programs.
SET_VAR At command level, defines a global variable and places it and its
value in the global variable file.
SIZE Displays data size of specified pathname in normalized records, which
is words/440, rounded up.
SLIST Prints (or displays) the contents of a file at the user's terminal.
SORT Sorts ASCII, variable length, or fixed length files.
SPOOL Queues disk files for line printer or plotter.
START Starts execution. Initializes process registers and keys, and starts
execution at pc. Assumes that a program is in memory. If pc is not
specified, execution resumes at point of interruption.
STATUS Displays user or system status.
SVCSW Sets SVC switch, which controls handling of the SVC instruction in the
virtual memory environment.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (T)
TERM Sets terminal characteristics. (Resets to defaults on logout.)
TIME Displays connect time (in hours and minutes), and compute and disk I/O
times (in minutes and seconds).
TRAMLC Transmits or receives a file over an assigned AMLC line between two
Prime computer systems.
TYPE Prints text at user's terminal or into a command output file.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (U)
UNASSIGN Releases a device (or communications line) previously ASSIGNed.
UPCASE Replaces lower case letters in the specifed file with corresponding
upper case letters.
USERS Displays number of current users.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (V)
VPSD, VPSD16 Invokes the Virtual-mode Prime Symbolic Debugger.
VRTSSW Sets a user's virtual sense switches, which are available to the
user's program via the INA '1620 (read sense switches) instruction.
PRIMOS COMMANDS ($$)
$$ JOB Controls submission and execution of batch jobs. Must appear as first
line in job file.
Alex |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 205
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
In article <1108333457.7c6d0cf73029e7e414fcc4c3b17b101d@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:
| Quote: | David J Dachtera wrote:
"rm" ... "DELETE"
REMOVE
"vi" ... "EDIT"
VI is a "brand name" editor.
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
This is de facto standard on most platforms now,
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
Comes from "LIST" (list of files)
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
TAR is a well known backup format now. Not so obscure.
"cat" ... "TYPE"
Comes from Concatenate. (think APPEND myfile.dat sys$output:)
"man" ... "HELP"
MANUAL
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
ok, so that one is obscure.
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
Line Printer. (and LPR is now a well known printer protocol)_
Once you knwo the meaning of the commands, they really aren't so
obscure. And just how do you remember all the qualifiers available for
each VMS command ? You just remember them from previous uses. Same
thing for those human being who morphed into Unix geeks. They just
learsn those -x switches and remember them. Just like you remember how
to construct an english language sentence, they remember how to
construct a unix language sentence.
|
The qualifiers on VMS are also English words (and in general they are
consistent between commands). The qualifiers on UNIX are single upper or
lowercase letters and they are generally not consistent between commands.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Gunshannon
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1019
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-7JdXurGcY1i5@dave2_os2.home.ours>,
"Dave Weatherall" <djw-nothere@nospam.nohow> writes:
| Quote: |
I do get your point. On the other hand to be submitting you'd have to
know something about Batch queues. When you have that and you've been
taught that jobs are submitted to batch queues, the command becomes
intuitive.
|
Ummmm..... Thingfs don't "become" intuitive when you learn about
them, they become learned.
intuitive adj 1: spontaneously derived from or prompted by a natural
tendency; "an intuitive revulsion" 2: obtained through intuition
rather than from reasoning or observation [syn: {nonrational}, {visceral}]
| Quote: | I assume (don't know) that the same is true for using, I
believe, cron on Unix.
|
Cron is the background task that manages scheduled jobs, not a user
command.
| Quote: | Maybe then, 'at' also becomes intuitive. As
ever, everything depends on the context.
|
Nothing about the user interface of computers is intuititve. Apple
tried to claim (in the early days when the Mac was new) that the use
of the mouse was somehow "intuitive". That didn't turn out to be
particularly true either. Thus the reason they included a game
(puzzle) as part of the base system to get people to fiddle with
the mouse till they felt comfortable with it. No one sits down at
any computer for the first time and is immediately productive. It
takes time to learn the basics of the system and no system is naturally
easier to learn than any other. In most cases, "mother duck" syndrome
applies and whichever system one first becomes comfortable with will
become their favorite. (unless something occurs to turn them against
it, like proselytizing!)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Gunshannon
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1019
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
In article <37b67vF5anjakU1@individual.net>,
Paul Sture <nospam@sture.homeip.net> writes:
| Quote: | Larry Kilgallen wrote:
In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
David J Dachtera wrote:
"rm" ... "DELETE"
"vi" ... "EDIT"
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
"cat" ... "TYPE"
"man" ... "HELP"
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experience
with the English language. Those from some countries might not find that
helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from
the United States.
And the qualifiers and meanings thereof are consistent across utilities
on VMS.
Anyone remember the subtle differences between the PDP utilities across
RT-11, RSTS and RSX? I know I was once caught out by the fact that /Q
for query (/CONFIRM on VMS) was the default on RT-11 PIP, but not on RSTS.
|
Funny you should mention those OSes. They pre-date VMS. They started
about the same time as Unix. And they had commands like PIP, DUP, LIBR,
FILEX, SRCCOM, BINCOM, RESORC, ODT, SIPP and SLP. And, guess what, they
still do. And these commands take single letter qualifiers. Go figure.
Of course, over time they developed wrappers that let people use commands
like DIRECTORY and COPY with full word qualifiers like BRIEF, FREE and
SORT. But the originals are still there and some of us still use them.
As I have said before, you can do the asme thing for Unix, but most
users opt not to.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Gunshannon
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1019
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
In article <421095be$0$32615$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>,
"Alex Daniels" <AlexNoSpamDaniels@themail.co.uk> writes:
| Quote: | "Bradford J. Hamilton" <hamilton@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message
news:cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net...
VMS is more intuitive than UNIX, but there are still some arbitrary
choices
here. I don't remember much of PRIMOS, but I think that some of the CL
was
yet more intuitive. bill g., care to comment?
Don't know about Bill, but I found PRIMOS to be very intuative, as I do VMS.
Of course most people hevily personailsed it with 'abbrev' anyway.
|
None of it is intuitive, All of it is learned.
| Quote: |
As for UNIX, well no it simply is not.
And UNIX arguments are not even worth a comparison of intuitiveness'
compared to VMS qualifiers.
|
Again, matter of opinion. It should be noted, however, that this is
changing, even as we speak. More and more Unix commands today have
full word qualifiers as well as the typical single letter one's many
of us ar familiar with and like. :-)
For example:
cpio {-o|--create} [-0acvABLV] [-C bytes] [-H format] [-M
message] [-O [[user@]host:]archive] [-F
[[user@]host:]archive] [--file=[[user@]host:]archive]
[--format=format] [--message=message] [--null] [--reset-
access-time] [--verbose] [--dot] [--append] [--block-
size=blocks] [--dereference] [--io-size=bytes] [--quiet]
[--force-local] [--help] [--version] < name-list [>
archive]
I was going to post this, but you beat me to it.
But let's take a look at a few of them.
| Quote: |
PRIMOS COMMANDS (A)
ABBREV Allows users to create and use abbreviations for PRIMOS commands and
their arguments.
ASRCWD Used only with serial I/O; ASRCWD 0 recovers a diverted terminal line
^^^^^^ intuitive?
from a serial printer, card reader or punch.
ASSIGN User gains complete control over a disk or peripheral device.
ATTACH Directory named by pathname, ufd-name, or name becomes the working
directory.
AVAIL Gives disk usage statistics for the current disk. With no argument,
gives current disk. With pathname, or with disk number, gives specified
disk. With * gives all started disks.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (B)
BASIC Runs the BASIC Language interpreter.
BASICV Runs the compiling, virtual-memory BASIC.
BASINP Loads non-Prime BASIC from paper tape into pathname
^^^^^^ intuitive?
BATCH -DISPLAY Displays information on jobs being processed by the Batch
subsystem.
BATGEN Lists name and status for each Batch queue, or displays the
^^^^^^ intuitive?
queuename, status, and characteristics for each queue.
BINARY Opens pathname for writing on file unit 3 for output. Equivalent to
OPEN pathname 3 2.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (C)
CLOSE Closes specified files and file units (except a COMOUTPUT file which
is closed by COMO -E)
CMPF Compares lines in up to five ASCII files, showing
^^^^ intuitive?
insertions/changes/deletions from file-a.
CNAME Changes name of file or directory. CNAME requires owner status to the
^^^^^^ intuitive?
directory.
COBOL Runs the COBOL compiler.
COMINPUT Reads command input from pathname instead of terminal. Input file
unit is 6 (default) unless funit is specified. CLOSE ALL will close the
COMINPUT file-unit causing the error message, "Unit not open. Cominput
(Input from terminal)".
COMOUTPUT Sends output stream to file specified by pathname or file opened
on unit '177. Not closed by CLOSE ALL.
CONCAT Combines a number of input files into an output file suitable for
spooling.
CPL Invokes the CPL interpreter and executes the CPL program named by
pathname.generate C flow graph
CPMPC Punches the file pathname on ASSIGNEed card reader/ punch 0 or 1. Does
not punch a $E end-of-file card.
CREATE Creates a new directory as specified by pathname, with blank owner
and zero non-owner passwords. The protection keys are set to 7 0
CRMPC Reads cards from parallel interface card reader 0 or 1 into file
^^^^^^ intuitive?
specified by pathname. Cards are translated into ASCII.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (D)
DATE Displays the current date and time.
DBASIC Runs double-precision interpretive BASIC.
DBG Invokes the source level debugger.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
DEFINE_GVAR Activates the named global variable file.
DELAY Sets terminal delay characteristics. Can be set prior to LOGIN.
DELETE Deletes pathname (either a file or an empty directory).
DELETE_VAR Deletes the named variables from an active global variable file.
Variable names may be wildcard names.
DELSEG Deassigns a segment. The ALL option releases all segments belonging
to user.
DMSTK The DMSTK command produces a call/return trace of the user's command
^^^^^^ intuitive?
loop stack and Static Mode stack (if any).
PRIMOS COMMANDS (E)
ED Edits existing or new file.
EDB The binary editor is used for building and maintaining libraries of
^^^^^^ intuitive?
subroutines.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (F)
F77 Invokes FORTRAN 77 compiler.
FILEMEM Clears contents of user address space to zeros for unsegmented
^^^^^^ intuitive?
programs.
FILVER Compares two files. Prints out differances in octal.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
FTN Invokes FORTRAN compiler.
FUTIL FUTIL is the interactive file manipulation utility. It responds with a
^^^^^^ intuitive?
prompt character, >, and waits for sub-commands.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (H)
HDXSTAT Displays the current status of all lines and sites of a half duplex
^^^^^^ intuitive?
(HDX) network configuration.
HPSD HPSD loads a version of PSD (Prime Symbolic Debugger) that is stored in
^^^^^^ intuitive?
the upper portion of memory.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (I)
INPUT Opens pathname for reading on file unit 1. Equivilant to
OPEN filename 1 1
PRIMOS COMMANDS (J)
JOB Submits and controls jobs for Batch execution.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (L)
LABEL Creates an ANSI COBOL level 1 volume label on a magnetic tape or reads
an existing label. The magnetic tape unit must be ASSIGNed.
LATE Requests a time in 24-hour HHMM format at which the next command will
be processed. If the specified time is earlier than the current time,
execution is deferred until the following day. The terminal cannot be used
for any other purpose until after the time specified.
LISTF Displays current directory name, logical drive and names of all files,
sub-UFDs and segment directories in the current directory. Displays OWNER or
NONOWNer status for current directory.
LISTING Opens a file for writing on file unit 2. Equivalent to
OPEN pathname 2 2.
LIST_VAR Lists named variables and their values from an active global
variable file. Variable name may be wildcard names.
LOAD Invokes the Linking Loader. LOAD loads programs for R-mode code
generated by PMA, FORTRAM or RPGII. To load segmented code, use the command
SEG.
LOGIN Log in to specified ufdname.
LOGOUT Log out user or phantom user.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (M)
MAGNET MAGNET is an interactive magnetic tape utility that transfers
^^^^^^ intuitive?
non-Prime-format magnetic tapes to and from PRIMOS disk files.
MAGRST Restores files, directory-trees or partitions from a magnetic tape
^^^^^^ intuitive?
created with MAGSAV. The tape unit must be ASSIGNed.
MAGSAV Writes a PRIMOS disk file, directory-tree or partition to 7 or
^^^^^^ intuitive?
9-track magnetic tape. The tape unit must be ASSIGNed.
MDL Memory dump/load to/from punched paper tape.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
MESSAGE Waits for one line of text and sends it to operator's or another
user's console.
MRGF Merged up to five files into a single file.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
PRIMOS COMMANDS (N)
NCOBOL Invokes the non-shared (R-mode) COBOL compiler.
NETLINK Connects user to any system on the Public Data Network.
NSED NSED is the non-shared version of the text editor.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
NUMBER Numbers/re-numbers statements in a BASIC program.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (O)
OPEN Opens specified pathname on specified unit. Type of file and access
mode are specifed as well.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (P)
PASCAL Invokes the PASCAL compiler.
PASSWD Changes owner and non-owner passwords of current directory (only for
user attached as owner).
PHANTOM Runs the command file or CPL program specified as a phantom user.
PL1G Invokes the PL/1, Subset G, compiler.
PM Displays contents of RVEC user register vector.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
PMA Invokes Prime's Macro Assembler.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
PRERR Displays ERRVEC messages set by ERRSET and first six octal locations
in ERRVEC or prints ERRVEC and last error message. Obsolete
PRMPG Prints specified pathname on MPG parallel interface printer (PR0)
previously ASSIGNed.
PROP Tells users which printers and/or plotetrs are running, and what their
environments are.
PROTEC Sets protection rights on the specified pathname.
PRSER Prints the specified pathname on serial ineterface printer (CEN)
previously ASSIGNed.
PRVER Prints the specified pathname on a configured printer/ plotter.
PSD Invokes the Prime Symbolic Debugger.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
PTCPY Duplicates and verifies paper tape, using the previously assigned
high-speed paper tape reader and paper tape punch.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (R)
RDY Allows users to choose prompt message to be displayed at their terminals
^^^^^^ intuitive?
and in their COMOUTPUT files.
RESTOR Restores runfile contained in the specified pathname into memory.
RESUME Runs (restores and starts) external program contained in the
specified pathname.
RLS Discards unwanted stack history.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
RPG Invokes the Prime RPGII Compiler.
RSTERM Empties the user terminal's input and/or output buffers.
RUNOFF Invokes Prime RUNOFF text processor.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (S)
SAVE Saves memory (segment '4000) from sa (start address) to ea (end
address) as a file.
SEG Invokes a utility for loading, modifying, running, and sharing segmented
(V-mode) programs.
SET_VAR At command level, defines a global variable and places it and its
value in the global variable file.
SIZE Displays data size of specified pathname in normalized records, which
is words/440, rounded up.
SLIST Prints (or displays) the contents of a file at the user's terminal.
^^^^^^ intuitive?
SORT Sorts ASCII, variable length, or fixed length files.
SPOOL Queues disk files for line printer or plotter.
START Starts execution. Initializes process registers and keys, and starts
execution at pc. Assumes that a program is in memory. If pc is not
specified, execution resumes at point of interruption.
STATUS Displays user or system status.
SVCSW Sets SVC switch, which controls handling of the SVC instruction in the
virtual memory environment.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (T)
TERM Sets terminal characteristics. (Resets to defaults on logout.)
TIME Displays connect time (in hours and minutes), and compute and disk I/O
times (in minutes and seconds).
TRAMLC Transmits or receives a file over an assigned AMLC line between two
^^^^^^ intuitive?
Prime computer systems.
TYPE Prints text at user's terminal or into a command output file.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (U)
UNASSIGN Releases a device (or communications line) previously ASSIGNed.
UPCASE Replaces lower case letters in the specifed file with corresponding
upper case letters.
USERS Displays number of current users.
PRIMOS COMMANDS (V)
VPSD, VPSD16 Invokes the Virtual-mode Prime Symbolic Debugger.
VRTSSW Sets a user's virtual sense switches, which are available to the
user's program via the INA '1620 (read sense switches) instruction.
PRIMOS COMMANDS ($$)
$$ JOB Controls submission and execution of batch jobs. Must appear as first
line in job file.
|
Many of them are shortened words like Unix uses. Some of them appear
to be little more than random strings, unless you are already familiar
with PRIMOS.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Gunshannon
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 1019
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
In article <cuq6r7$qhe$2@news.mdx.ac.uk>,
david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
| Quote: | In article <1108333457.7c6d0cf73029e7e414fcc4c3b17b101d@teranews>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> writes:
David J Dachtera wrote:
"rm" ... "DELETE"
REMOVE
"vi" ... "EDIT"
VI is a "brand name" editor.
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
This is de facto standard on most platforms now,
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
Comes from "LIST" (list of files)
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
TAR is a well known backup format now. Not so obscure.
"cat" ... "TYPE"
Comes from Concatenate. (think APPEND myfile.dat sys$output:)
"man" ... "HELP"
MANUAL
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
ok, so that one is obscure.
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
Line Printer. (and LPR is now a well known printer protocol)_
Once you knwo the meaning of the commands, they really aren't so
obscure. And just how do you remember all the qualifiers available for
each VMS command ? You just remember them from previous uses. Same
thing for those human being who morphed into Unix geeks. They just
learsn those -x switches and remember them. Just like you remember how
to construct an english language sentence, they remember how to
construct a unix language sentence.
The qualifiers on VMS are also English words (and in general they are
consistent between commands). The qualifiers on UNIX are single upper or
lowercase letters and they are generally not consistent between commands.
|
See my previous post on this subject. While that may have been true
originally, even Unix commands are changing. Probably because there
are more and more people using it for whom the Unix system is not
something familiar.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DeanW
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
|
|
|
JF Mezei:
| Quote: | Beach Runner wrote:
Oh Yes,
GREP is a much more human interface than Search.
And the MAC's "find" menu is far more human friendly than SEARCH on VMS.
|
Now you're comparing apples to pomegranates, GUI features to CLI. (And
if you want to talk about the CLI on a mac, you're talking *nix...)
Bradford J Hamilton:
| Quote: | DJD:
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
|
Neither makes sense to someone who has no grasp of what a "directory"
is. At this point, if they're coming from a PC (or mac?) GUI
background, they're more likely to know "folder" than "directory".
GO or GOTO makes as much sense at that phase. Too bad there are issues
with that in DCL, or I'd use it.
| Quote: | "tar" ... "BACKUP"
TAR is a well known backup format now. Not so obscure.
|
Tar is what you put on asphalt roads or maybe your roof. Nasty
smelling black stuff.
SAVE might work for a command to place a copy of a file someplace
where it's less likely to be changed/deleted.
RUN .... to do something; add AFTER if you want it to start later on.
VMS commands seem to me to be closer to natural language. If I were to
try to teach my SO or her 13 year old, neither of whom have much
experience outside point'n'drool, to use *nix or VMS, I imagine better
success with VMS. Surely there have been usability studies?
But really- who sits a complete novice down and walks off? You sit
them by someone's elbow who's done the job for years. At the end of
the training, neither of them will know *why* they type
SET DEF SYS$MYAPP <return>
@STARTAPP <return>
before they can start work- they'll just know that's what they do
(assuming that's not in their login script, which it probably should
be).
if you want to talk about *developers*, that's a different can of clam
chowder. I expect if I started working in *nix more than the playing
around I do now, it wouldn't take me long to get comfortable.
As for the topic at hand, I find grep and SEARCH both have strengths
and weaknesses. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Google
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
The time now is Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:24 am | All times are GMT
|
|
Debt Consolidation | Advertising | Debt Consolidation | Credit Card | Debt Consolidation
|
|
Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
|
|
|
|
Other DeniX Solutions sites:
Unix/Linux blog |
electronics forum |
medicine forum |
science forum |
|
|
Privacy Policy
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Forum index
»
Not Unix
»
VMS
