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Beach Runner
*nix forums addict
Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 80
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 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 4:26 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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bob@instantwhip.com wrote:
| Quote: | the point is I can sit anyone down at a vms machine and they
would bee 100% more productive there compared to a unix
machine ... and not only would they be more productive, they
also would not have to become a member of the patch of the
day club, and have the worlds best tco and clustering ...
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Oh Yes,
GREP is a much more human interface than Search. |
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David J Dachtera
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 1067
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Z wrote:
| Quote: |
David J Dachtera wrote:
Have you (or anyone you know) ever been "grep"-ed by a law-enforcement
agent? ...ever been served with or even heard of a "grep" warrant?
...ever heard of an internet "grep" engine? ...ever heard of a "grep"
and rescue mission?
'Nuff said.
Is your point that the name "grep" isn't intuitive?
The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layered
product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of
VMS exposure.
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Yeah, I guess "cp" *IS* more "intuitive" than COPY...
"rm" ... "DELETE"
"vi" ... "EDIT"
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
"cat" ... "TYPE"
"man" ... "HELP"
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/
Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page |
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Z
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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David J Dachtera wrote:
| Quote: | Is your point that the name "grep" isn't intuitive?
The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layered
product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of
VMS exposure.
Yeah, I guess "cp" *IS* more "intuitive" than COPY...
"rm" ... "DELETE"
"vi" ... "EDIT"
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
"cat" ... "TYPE"
"man" ... "HELP"
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? 
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Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
I find it telling that you compare SUBMIT and at... consider why you
think "SUBMIT" makes more sense than "at" for runnng a task at some time
in the future and then go ask some one who doesn't know Unix or VMS
which command they think makes more sense. |
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David J Dachtera
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 1067
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Z wrote:
| Quote: |
David J Dachtera wrote:
Is your point that the name "grep" isn't intuitive?
The same is true for plenty of VMS commands, qualifiers and also layered
product commands. You just don't see it that way because of decades of
VMS exposure.
Yeah, I guess "cp" *IS* more "intuitive" than COPY...
"rm" ... "DELETE"
"vi" ... "EDIT"
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
"cat" ... "TYPE"
"man" ... "HELP"
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
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The VMS commands are plain English, common usage - no degree required.
Please, do expound profusely on how "cp" would be the firts tought to
mind when exploring commands to copy files, "cat" to type them out, etc.
Feel free to poll non-computer users for their input.
| Quote: | I find it telling that you compare SUBMIT and at... consider why you
think "SUBMIT" makes more sense than "at" for runnng a task at some time
in the future and then go ask some one who doesn't know Unix or VMS
which command they think makes more sense.
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Depends. I typically think of what I need to do and when I need to do
it. While I might say out loud, "At 1000, I need to (insert task here)",
it is unlikely that I would think or say, "Let's see: I need to cp that
file...".
My internal syntax, as you say (being a long-time VMS user), is
typically, "After 1000, I need (x) to happen" which comes from
SUBMIT/AFTER. Typical computer users would likely have a bit of trouble
on that adjustment, but perhaps less than "cp"-ing a file rather than
COPYing it, "vi"-ing a document rather than EDITing it, "lpr"-ing a
"document" rather than PRINTing it, "tar"-ing their files rather than
making a BACKUP, ...
DCL verbs are typically very English language - dictionary words, which
"cp", "rm", "ls", etc. are not. Some software products introduce verbs
which are less intuitive, like WSEA, LD, and others.
Also, "intuition" is a very individual concept.
--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/
Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page |
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Z
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:23 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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David J Dachtera wrote:
| Quote: | Also, "intuition" is a very individual concept.
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On this, we agree. |
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JF Mezei
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 2556
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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bob@instantwhip.com wrote:
| Quote: |
the point is I can sit anyone down at a vms machine and they
would bee 100% more productive there compared to a unix
machine ...
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"anyone" ????
A russian would be more comfortable on a machine that is in russian.
A greek is more comfortable on a machine that is in Greek.
A Unix Geek would be more comfortable on a machine that speaks Unix.
And a MAC user wouldn't be 100% moe productive on a VMS machine. Nor
woudl a Windows user, even with decwindows running. |
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JF Mezei
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 2556
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Beach Runner wrote:
| Quote: | Oh Yes,
GREP is a much more human interface than Search.
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And the MAC's "find" menu is far more human friendly than SEARCH on VMS.
Comparing DCL with a unix shell is like comparing COBOL to APL. The APL
guru is far more comfortable with his APL , able to do really fancy
tricks in one line when it would take a 1000 line COBOL program to do.
In the end, it is about productivity. Unix may take a bit more training
than VMS. But if one has a good Unix manual, it shouldn't be that hard
to learn.
After you've learned a second language, you brain learns to switch
contexts/languages. I think the same applies to computers. if you've
worked in different environments, it because easier to just get into an
environment and quickly get used to it. If you've only ever worked on
one environment, then you're at a loss when presented with a new one and
your brain needs to learn how to become bilingual (in computer
environment terms). |
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JF Mezei
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 2556
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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David J Dachtera wrote:
| Quote: | "rm" ... "DELETE"
REMOVE
"vi" ... "EDIT"
VI is a "brand name" editor. |
| Quote: | "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
This is de facto standard on most platforms now,
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
Comes from "LIST" (list of files)
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
TAR is a well known backup format now. Not so obscure. |
| Quote: | "cat" ... "TYPE"
Comes from Concatenate. (think APPEND myfile.dat sys$output:)
"man" ... "HELP"
MANUAL
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
ok, so that one is obscure.
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
Line Printer. (and LPR is now a well known printer protocol)_ |
Once you knwo the meaning of the commands, they really aren't so
obscure. And just how do you remember all the qualifiers available for
each VMS command ? You just remember them from previous uses. Same
thing for those human being who morphed into Unix geeks. They just
learsn those -x switches and remember them. Just like you remember how
to construct an english language sentence, they remember how to
construct a unix language sentence. |
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Larry Kilgallen
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 729
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
| Quote: | David J Dachtera wrote:
"rm" ... "DELETE"
"vi" ... "EDIT"
"cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
"ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
"tar" ... "BACKUP"
"cat" ... "TYPE"
"man" ... "HELP"
"ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
"lpr" ... "PRINT"
"at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
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No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experience
with the English language. Those from some countries might not find that
helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from
the United States. |
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Larry Kilgallen
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 729
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:09 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:
| Quote: | In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
!> David J Dachtera wrote:
!
!>> "rm" ... "DELETE"
!>> "vi" ... "EDIT"
!>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
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If so, do you know of an operating system which provides a command
called CHANGE DIRECTORY ?
| Quote: | !>> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
!>> "tar" ... "BACKUP"
COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse 
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No, COPY means something simpler.
| Quote: | !>> "cat" ... "TYPE"
!>> "man" ... "HELP"
!>> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
!>> "lpr" ... "PRINT"
!>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"
BATCH would be more intuitive here.
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Word choice is more than spelling - it is also parts of speech.
The better VMS commands are verbs. |
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JF Mezei
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 2556
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:19 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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"Bradford J. Hamilton" wrote:
| Quote: | Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
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Satan's lawyer says: - "SET DIRECTORY or SET LOCATION would be more
intuitive
Or even MOVE INTO .....
| Quote: | COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse
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SAFEGUARD would make more sense.
| Quote: | !>> "cat" ... "TYPE"
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out of curiosity, what does "dog" do in Unix ????
| Quote: | BATCH would be more intuitive here.
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QUEUE would be better. (the verb). After all, that is what submit and
print do, they just queue a job to be processed.
| Quote: | VMS is more intuitive than UNIX, but there are still some arbitrary choices
here.
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Nothing beats the macintosh, especially for file management. And it
isn't that much younger than VMS by now. (consider that its parent, the
Lisa was circa 1982-1983, only 5 years after VMS. However, from an OS
perspective, VMS was way ahead of the MAC until OS-X. |
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Bradford J. Hamilton
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:46 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
!> David J Dachtera wrote:
!
!>> "rm" ... "DELETE"
!>> "vi" ... "EDIT"
!>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
!>> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
!>> "tar" ... "BACKUP"
COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse :-)
!>> "cat" ... "TYPE"
!>> "man" ... "HELP"
!>> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
!>> "lpr" ... "PRINT"
!>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"
BATCH would be more intuitive here.
VMS is more intuitive than UNIX, but there are still some arbitrary choices
here. I don't remember much of PRIMOS, but I think that some of the CL was
yet more intuitive. bill g., care to comment?
!snip! |
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Z
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:01 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Larry Kilgallen wrote:
| Quote: | "at" ... "SUBMIT"
(Guess you can tell that at some point I just looked at my HELP display
and picked out some of the more obviously "intuitive" UN*X-land
commands, eh? ;-)
Again, the VMS commands are more meaningful to you only because of your
past VMS experience.
No, actually the VMS commands are more meaningful due to past experience
with the English language. Those from some countries might not find that
helpful, but unless David has been fooling us all this time, he is from
the United States.
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Really?
How often do you use the word SUBMIT when talking about something you
need to do in the future? |
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Bradford J. Hamilton
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:02 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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In article <O8TVTAHj+Zz$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!In article <cuovtg$b5d$1@grandcanyon.binc.net>, hamilton@Encompasserve.org (Bradford J. Hamilton) writes:
!> In article <sOL5DRxERm1n@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
!> !In article <A0OPd.1312$wt4.38@fe07.lga>, Z <Z@no.spam> writes:
!> !> David J Dachtera wrote:
!> !
!> !>> "rm" ... "DELETE"
!> !>> "vi" ... "EDIT"
!> !>> "cd" ... "SET DEFAULT"
!>
!> Devil's advocate - "CHANGE DIRECTORY" is much more intuitive here.
!
!If so, do you know of an operating system which provides a command
!called CHANGE DIRECTORY ?
Yes - UNIX has c(hange)d(irectory) :-)
There would be a related command, "SHOW DIRECTORY"...
!
!> !>> "ls" ... "DIRECTORY"
!> !>> "tar" ... "BACKUP"
!>
!> COPY would make more sense - BACKUP means put the car in reverse
!
!No, COPY means something simpler.
!
In the VMS world, we know the difference between COPY and BACKUP, but
explaining the difference to an outsider is somewhat counter-intuitive. How
about REPLICATE to replace BACKUP? COPY would retain its "current" meaning...
:-)
!> !>> "cat" ... "TYPE"
!> !>> "man" ... "HELP"
!> !>> "ps" ... "SHOW SYSTEM"
!> !>> "lpr" ... "PRINT"
!> !>> "at" ... "SUBMIT"
!>
!> BATCH would be more intuitive here.
!
!Word choice is more than spelling - it is also parts of speech.
!The better VMS commands are verbs.
Very subtle reasoning here - so the best of VMS is dynamic, rather than static? |
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Z
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 163
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:47 am Post subject:
Re: grep on openVMS?
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Bradford J. Hamilton wrote:
| Quote: | In the VMS world, we know the difference between COPY and BACKUP, but
explaining the difference to an outsider is somewhat counter-intuitive. How
about REPLICATE to replace BACKUP? COPY would retain its "current" meaning...
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One more: "BACKUP" as the command for restoring data is counterintuitive. |
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