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arie van schutterhoef
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 24
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 Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject:
R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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I wonder if it's worthwhile to replace a R10000-150mHz with a
R12000-300mHz in an o2.
Is the doubling increase reality or just bogus?
Just wondering whether audio applications will benefit
from this.
AvS |
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Atro Tossavainen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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arie van schutterhoef <arsche@xs4all.nl> writes:
| Quote: | I wonder if it's worthwhile to replace a R10000-150mHz with a
R12000-300mHz in an o2.
Is the doubling increase reality or just bogus?
|
Depends on the price, I suppose.
| Quote: | Just wondering whether audio applications will benefit
from this.
|
What exactly are you doing?
--
Atro Tossavainen (Mr.) / The Institute of Biotechnology at
Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish & / the University of Helsinki, Finland,
+358-9-19158939 UNIX Dinosaur / employs me, but my opinions are my own.
< URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE ATTACHMENTS |
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arie van schutterhoef
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:00 am Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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In article <pgzzmxh7mnl.fsf@kruuna.helsinki.fi>, Atro Tossavainen
<Atro.Tossavainen+news@helsinki.finland.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | Depends on the price, I suppose.
-90 euro's (which is affordable, I guess...) |
| Quote: | What exactly are you doing?
-Running PD and doing FFT's for realtime audio performances. |
I'm not so sure how benchmarks relate to this, in the
sense of pure number crunching.
Because I found this link regarding PD running on
different platforms:
http://iem.at/mailinglists/pd-list/2003-11/015206.html
I wa quite surprised about the outcome.
I also made me wonder about SGI policy itself, regarding
OS and hardware. But that another topic...
AvS |
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John-Paul Stewart
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 497
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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arie van schutterhoef wrote:
| Quote: | I wonder if it's worthwhile to replace a R10000-150mHz with a
R12000-300mHz in an o2.
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ISTR that the early R10K O2s (150MHz and 175MHz) were stuck with a poor
design that hurt memory bandwidth (or something) and performance
(relative to other, similar R10K CPUs in other systems). From what I've
heard, I'd say go for it. (But there are others in this newsgroup who
are more familiar with the O2 architecture than I am, who can elaborate
on what I think I remember reading.) |
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Atro Tossavainen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:51 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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arie van schutterhoef <arsche@xs4all.nl> writes:
| Quote: | Depends on the price, I suppose.
-90 euro's (which is affordable, I guess...)
|
If you can get the CPU upgrade from 150 MHz R10k to 300 MHz R12k for
90 euros, I would already have done it.
| Quote: | What exactly are you doing?
-Running PD and doing FFT's for realtime audio performances.
|
My gut instinct is that realtime FFT will certainly benefit from the
increased CPU power. I'm not sure about Pd, I'm totally unfamiliar
with that application.
The overall system design differences between the O2 and the Octane
may mean that you won't be able to get quite as much out of your O2
as Olaf does on his Octane with an identical CPU. What kind of
results are you getting now (if you do the same test that Olaf did)?
| Quote: | I wa quite surprised about the outcome.
|
Hey, all SGI aficionados know it's not the MHz that counts. :-)
I should probably try compiling Pd and its friends with the MIPSpro
compilers rather than gcc which is what Olaf used to see if we can't
get even more oomph out of it :-)
--
Atro Tossavainen (Mr.) / The Institute of Biotechnology at
Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish & / the University of Helsinki, Finland,
+358-9-19158939 UNIX Dinosaur / employs me, but my opinions are my own.
< URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE ATTACHMENTS |
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arie van schutterhoef
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:42 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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| Quote: | The overall system design differences between the O2 and the Octane
may mean that you won't be able to get quite as much out of your O2
as Olaf does on his Octane with an identical CPU.
-The question is probably more or whether the o2's UMA makes |
a difference in comparison to the Octane's switch. In particular
when the system contains two cpu's.
Also secondary cache will influence the outcome.
AvS |
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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In article <190320051742498187%arsche@xs4all.nl>,
arie van schutterhoef <arsche@xs4all.nl> wrote:
: > The overall system design differences between the O2 and the Octane
: > may mean that you won't be able to get quite as much out of your O2
: > as Olaf does on his Octane with an identical CPU.
: -The question is probably more or whether the o2's UMA makes
: a difference in comparison to the Octane's switch. In particular
: when the system contains two cpu's.
: Also secondary cache will influence the outcome.
The point that was trying to be made is that the R10k O2s are essentially a
graft job, and the CPU performance suffers because of it even when the rest of
the system isn't anywhere near its limits.
You can read Ian's CPU performance tables for examples showing how the FP
performance especially is completely neutered in the R10k O2 compared to the
exact same CPU in the Octane or even the Indigo2:
<http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/r10kcomp.html>
<http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/r10k250comp.html>
If you don't use the UMA features in the O2 then you're *much* better off with
an Octane.
Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler :)
--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler -- Master of Code-fu -- nicoya@ubb.ca
-- http://nicoya.feline.pp.se/ -- http://www.ubb.ca/ -- |
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arie van schutterhoef
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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indication, but I'm not so sure to what extent they relate
to audio processing. They all seem to graphics -oriented.
Though maybe it's better to speak in general signal processing
terms.
| Quote: | If you don't use the UMA features in the O2 then you're *much* better off
with an Octane.
-I presume with UMA's strengths, you talk of the I/O benefits? |
As far as being better of: the o2 is going to be used for
concerts and an Octane is far too noisy with all these fans.
The o2 is much quieter, so otherwise the Octane would be the favorite.
AvS |
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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In article <200320051805445510%arsche@xs4all.nl>,
arie van schutterhoef <arsche@xs4all.nl> wrote:
: > You can read Ian's CPU performance tables for examples showing how the FP
: > performance especially is completely neutered in the R10k O2 compared to
: > the
: > exact same CPU in the Octane or even the Indigo2:
: > <http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/r10kcomp.html>
: > <http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/r10k250comp.html>
: -I've read them some time ago and they give a general
: indication, but I'm not so sure to what extent they relate
: to audio processing. They all seem to graphics -oriented.
: Though maybe it's better to speak in general signal processing
: terms.
The benchmarks on those pages use a number of algorithms to test various aspects
of floating point and integer CPU/System performance respectively.
: > If you don't use the UMA features in the O2 then you're *much* better off
: > with an Octane.
: -I presume with UMA's strengths, you talk of the I/O benefits?
: As far as being better of: the o2 is going to be used for
: concerts and an Octane is far too noisy with all these fans.
: The o2 is much quieter, so otherwise the Octane would be the favorite.
UMA's strengths are primarily in the areas of 3d texturing using video as
texture or using jumbo textures. The O2 also has the benefit of having very
cheap and available video IO.
The Octane can be a bit noisy if the ambient temperature is above 25c, otherwise
it's not too bad.
Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler :)
--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler -- Master of Code-fu -- nicoya@ubb.ca
-- http://nicoya.feline.pp.se/ -- http://www.ubb.ca/ -- |
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Tristram Scott
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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In comp.sys.sgi.apps arie van schutterhoef <arsche@xs4all.nl> wrote:
| Quote: |
You can read Ian's CPU performance tables for examples showing how the FP
performance especially is completely neutered in the R10k O2 compared to the
exact same CPU in the Octane or even the Indigo2:
http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/r10kcomp.html
http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/r10k250comp.html
-I've read them some time ago and they give a general
indication, but I'm not so sure to what extent they relate
to audio processing. They all seem to graphics -oriented.
Though maybe it's better to speak in general signal processing
terms.
|
Signal processing will likely involve FFTs, and these benefit greatly from
a decent sized cache. The Octanes will cope much more easily than the
O2. They also have the digital audio as a standard rather than an extra.
If you are reading or writing to disk I have always found the Octanes to
be better are shoving large amounts of data across the system, so that
would be another advantage.
Either one has good quality audio hardware.
| Quote: | If you don't use the UMA features in the O2 then you're *much* better off
with an Octane.
-I presume with UMA's strengths, you talk of the I/O benefits?
As far as being better of: the o2 is going to be used for
concerts and an Octane is far too noisy with all these fans.
The o2 is much quieter, so otherwise the Octane would be the favorite.
AvS
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If you are worried about the noise, you could always put it in a
(ventilated) box. The Octane is not too bad, really. Not silent, but not
unbearable. They do weigh quite a bit more than the O2. Never fun to shift
them about.
--
Dr Tristram J. Scott
Energy Consultant |
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Atro Tossavainen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:26 am Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <nicoya@ubb.ca> writes:
| Quote: | The Octane can be a bit noisy if the ambient temperature is above 25c,
otherwise it's not too bad.
|
I guess that means the sensors are off on every single Octane I've ever
laid hands on (that's four R12K 300 MHz ones and seven R10K ones between
175 and 250 MHz, one of them dual CPU). They are noisy as hell at our
normal room temp of 20'C or so. I'd hate to learn that's the quiet mode.
How many fans are there in the Octane? Are they reasonably standard
components and is it possible to replace them with quieter ones of an
otherwise identical spec? I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty,
particularly with the one I've got at home.
--
Atro Tossavainen (Mr.) / The Institute of Biotechnology at
Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish & / the University of Helsinki, Finland,
+358-9-19158939 UNIX Dinosaur / employs me, but my opinions are my own.
< URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE ATTACHMENTS |
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Tristram Scott
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:51 am Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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In comp.sys.sgi.apps Atro Tossavainen
<Atro.Tossavainen+news@helsinki.finland.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: |
How many fans are there in the Octane? Are they reasonably standard
components and is it possible to replace them with quieter ones of an
otherwise identical spec? I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty,
particularly with the one I've got at home.
|
They have three fans. The one on the PSU is easy to replace if you have
the Cherokee one with the silver handle. On the older ones (with the black
handle) it requires disassembly of the PSU. As for finding a quieter one
with the same spec, I have not managed to do so with any level of success.
I put in one made by Y.S. Tech, FD12387S-1I. Supposedly a bit quieter, and
with slightly greater throughput. When installed it turned out to be
louder than the Panaflo FBA12G12U1A I was replacing.
I think the problem was that the noise is not just from the fan itself, but
from all the air movement throughout the machine. The new fan had a
slightly greater airflow, and hence (I guess) greater total noise.
In the end I stuck it in a corner with a pillow over it to muffle it, but
still allow sufficient airflow that it doesn't overheat.
Given that mine doesn't run with fast fan ever (dual 250, SSI, 1.5GB RAM) I
might perhaps drop in a lower spec fan. If it overheats then it can always
go to fast fan mode...
The topic of replacing fans in the Octane has been discussed many times in
these groups. I'm not aware of anyone reporting astounding success, with
the exception of people who stuck the thing in a padded box.
--
Dr Tristram J. Scott
Energy Consultant |
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:41 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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In article <pgz8y4hxscj.fsf@kruuna.helsinki.fi>,
Atro Tossavainen <Atro.Tossavainen+news@helsinki.finland.invalid> wrote:
: Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <nicoya@ubb.ca> writes:
:
: > The Octane can be a bit noisy if the ambient temperature is above 25c,
: > otherwise it's not too bad.
:
: I guess that means the sensors are off on every single Octane I've ever
: laid hands on (that's four R12K 300 MHz ones and seven R10K ones between
: 175 and 250 MHz, one of them dual CPU). They are noisy as hell at our
: normal room temp of 20'C or so. I'd hate to learn that's the quiet mode.
I assume you've checked to be sure that the honeycomb vents aren't blocked.
My Octane is a dual 250 with SE graphics and the PCI shoebox. It should be noted
that installing some options will force the system into fastfan mode, which
overrides the temperature sensors. (I think the MXI/MXE is the most common
culprit)
: How many fans are there in the Octane? Are they reasonably standard
: components and is it possible to replace them with quieter ones of an
: otherwise identical spec? I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty,
: particularly with the one I've got at home.
The fans are all standard parts. As I recall, the power supply fan is a 120x25,
the drive cage fan is an 80x25, and the frontplane fan is a 60x10.
There's two things that cause fan noise: bearing noise and turbulence noise.
Sadly the Octane mostly suffers from the latter, so upgrading to higher quality
fans won't buy you any silence.
The hard drives in most Octanes will tend to be fairly noisy compared to more
modern units. You might want to try powering on the system with the drives
removed to see if it would be worth replacing them.
Even in ideal conditions the Octane is pretty far from the modern standard of
quiet computers. It is, however, quite livable if it's kept cool and out of
fastfan mode.
Cheers - Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler :)
--
Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler -- Master of Code-fu -- nicoya@ubb.ca
-- http://nicoya.feline.pp.se/ -- http://www.ubb.ca/ -- |
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arie van schutterhoef
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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removed to see if it would be worth replacing them.
| Quote: |
Even in ideal conditions the Octane is pretty far from the modern standard of
quiet computers.
-Which is a point well made. Still the Octane is a wonderfull machine |
considering it's age and for that time quite revolutionary for
a desktop workstation. I've one in my working place where it
can produce all the noise it wants, but you can't use it
on stage, with a (albeit closely miked, thus amplified)
violin playing delicate noises (which are analysed by a SGI
machine and subsequently send out control signals with OSC to
a Apple G4 for signal procesing).
So probably it end up being an upgraded o2, conected to
other machines over a local network. One option still
under consideration is putting one or more Octanes backstage
and connections the desired I/O throught ADAT and ethernet
to the appropriate places. But that is the next item on the menu...
avS |
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Atro Tossavainen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:36 am Post subject:
Re: R10000-150mHz_vs_R12000-300mHz...(?)
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Tony 'Nicoya' Mantler <nicoya@ubb.ca> writes:
| Quote: | I assume you've checked to be sure that the honeycomb vents aren't blocked.
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Yes.
| Quote: | My Octane is a dual 250 with SE graphics and the PCI shoebox. It should be noted
that installing some options will force the system into fastfan mode, which
overrides the temperature sensors. (I think the MXI/MXE is the most common
culprit)
|
We don't have MXI/MXE on any of them. My home machine is a single 175
with SE graphics and no shoebox.
| Quote: | There's two things that cause fan noise: bearing noise and turbulence noise.
Sadly the Octane mostly suffers from the latter, so upgrading to higher quality
fans won't buy you any silence.
|
Right. Won't bother then.
| Quote: | The hard drives in most Octanes will tend to be fairly noisy compared to more
modern units. You might want to try powering on the system with the drives
removed to see if it would be worth replacing them.
|
I can recognize drive noise from air flow noise. :-)
--
Atro Tossavainen (Mr.) / The Institute of Biotechnology at
Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish & / the University of Helsinki, Finland,
+358-9-19158939 UNIX Dinosaur / employs me, but my opinions are my own.
< URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE ATTACHMENTS |
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