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Norbert Tretkowski
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 43
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 Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:30 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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* Marco d'Itri wrote:
| Quote: | On Feb 09, Norbert Tretkowski <tretkowski@inittab.de> wrote:
# /.dev is used by /sbin/MAKEDEV to access the real /dev directory.
# if you don't like this, remove /.dev/.
"Remove /.dev/" does not mean "rm -rf it".
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What does it mean instead?
| Quote: | Considering that the line above says "to access the real /dev
directory", I think that the message is very clear.
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It's not.
Norbert
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Cameron Hutchison
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:40 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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Once upon a time Ron Johnson said...
| Quote: | On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 12:43 -0800, Ben Pfaff wrote:
Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> writes:
One thing I do know is that traditional apps like df (and anything
that uses stat(), I guess) don't know about /.dev, and so return
false information:
[df output snipped]
It's not really false, it's just that /.dev is a subtree of / and
so shows the same information as / does.
To me, reporting the same information 2 times means that one of
them should not be there. [...]
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The information is not the same. Some of it is, some of it isn't.
If you remove the line entirely, you lose information about the bind
mount.
It could be argued that df (presumable short for Disk Free) should
somehow identify situations where the same "device" appears multiple
times and show only the one set of usage data, but that is probably
almost impossible to identify.
| Quote: | "So what?", you say. Well, data should only be listed once, not
twice. gtkdiskfree sums up all total and free disk space, and
having /.dev in there totally distorts the truth.
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That's a problem with gtkdiskfree, not with having /.dev mounted.
The situation also occurs when you have a NFS server exporting a number
of disk trees from the one filesystem to a client that mounts those
multiple trees at different locations in its own filesystem. df (and
presumable gtkdiskfree) will display duplicate filesystem usage
information.
This situation has been around since long before gtkdiskfree existed
(even before linux existed), so if it does not accomodate it, it is a
deficiency in gtkdiskfree, not NFS mounts. Likewise for bind mounts.
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Steve Greenland
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:50 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On 09-Feb-05, 19:12 (CST), Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "So what?", you say. Well, data should only be listed once, not
twice. gtkdiskfree sums up all total and free disk space, and
having /.dev in there totally distorts the truth.
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If you don't have a fs mounted, df won't show it either. Is it lying
then, too?
Df et. al. show all the mounted filesystems. If the same filesystem is
mounted twice, then it shows it twice.
Steve
--
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world. -- seen on the net
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Anthony Towns
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 274
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:40 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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GOMBAS Gabor wrote:
| Quote: | You cannot reliably put it under a directory that is not guaranteed to
be on the root file system; that leaves roughly /, /etc, /bin, /lib and
/sbin. Pick your favourite 
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So what's wrong with /lib/udev/pre-udev-dev or /lib/udev/real-rootfs-dev
or similar?
Cheers,
aj
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Ron Johnson
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 1190
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:10 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On Wed, 2005-02-09 at 19:24 -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
| Quote: | On 09-Feb-05, 19:12 (CST), Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
"So what?", you say. Well, data should only be listed once, not
twice. gtkdiskfree sums up all total and free disk space, and
having /.dev in there totally distorts the truth.
If you don't have a fs mounted, df won't show it either. Is it lying
then, too?
Df et. al. show all the mounted filesystems. If the same filesystem is
mounted twice, then it shows it twice.
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It's a PITA to have to manually subtract out /.dev.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00402.html
"For people who want MAKEDEV to keep updating the static /dev."
It's not the most essential thing in the world, so should be dropped,
and added when needed.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.
"You're a good example of why some animals eat their young."
Jim Samuels |
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Marco d'Itri
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 401
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:30 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On Feb 10, Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | "So what?", you say. Well, data should only be listed once, not
twice. gtkdiskfree sums up all total and free disk space, and
having /.dev in there totally distorts the truth.
This means that gtkdiskfree is broken, and should be fixed to understand |
bind mounts. HTH.
--
ciao,
Marco |
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GOMBAS Gabor
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:00 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:08:16AM +0100, Norbert Tretkowski wrote:
| Quote: | "Remove /.dev/" does not mean "rm -rf it".
What does it mean instead?
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It's what politicians do: quote something out-of-context and pretend it
means something entirely different than in the original context
/etc/init.d/udev has:
# if you don't like this, remove /.dev/.
[ -d /.dev ] && mount -n --bind /dev /.dev
Meaning: if you "rmdir /.dev" _before_ udev is started, then
/etc/init.d/udev will not bind-mount the original /dev over it. If you
do not know basic shell programming to understand at least that much,
then you should better not "rm -rf" things at random (or at least do not
complain about the results).
Gabor
--
---------------------------------------------------------
MTA SZTAKI Computer and Automation Research Institute
Hungarian Academy of Sciences
---------------------------------------------------------
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Frank Küster
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 9:40 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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md@Linux.IT (Marco d'Itri) schrieb:
| Quote: | On Feb 09, Norbert Tretkowski <tretkowski@inittab.de> wrote:
File a bugreport... /etc/init.d/udev says:
Don't.
# /.dev is used by /sbin/MAKEDEV to access the real /dev directory.
# if you don't like this, remove /.dev/.
"Remove /.dev/" does not mean "rm -rf it".
Considering that the line above says "to access the real /dev
directory", I think that the message is very clear.
|
Considering that not every user knows about bind-mount, and might be
confused and think that it is "something like" a symlink, I think that
this is worth some better documentation. I would suggest:
# If you don't like this, umount /.dev/ and remove the empty directory.
Regards, Frank
--
Frank Küster
Inst. f. Biochemie der Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer |
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Ron Johnson
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 1190
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:30 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 10:11 +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
| Quote: | On Feb 10, Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
"So what?", you say. Well, data should only be listed once, not
twice. gtkdiskfree sums up all total and free disk space, and
having /.dev in there totally distorts the truth.
This means that gtkdiskfree is broken, and should be fixed to understand
bind mounts. HTH.
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It does.
I'll file bugs against gtkdiskfree & pydf. Now that I understand
this more (thanks, MdI), I see that df has a way to exclude bind
mounts.
$ df -T
Filesystem Type 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda3 ext3 9843308 5430908 3912380 59% /
tmpfs tmpfs 501936 0 501936 0% /dev/shm
/dev/hda2 ext3 46668 20415 23844 47% /boot
/dev/hda5 reiserfs 2995936 1988176 1007760 67% /home
/dev/hda6 ext3 105280504 79520128 20412340 80% /data
/dev unknown 9843308 5430908 3912380 59% /.dev
none tmpfs 5120 2564 2556 51% /dev
$ df -x unknown
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda3 9843308 5430908 3912380 59% /
tmpfs 501936 0 501936 0% /dev/shm
/dev/hda2 46668 20415 23844 47% /boot
/dev/hda5 2995936 1987864 1008072 67% /home
/dev/hda6 105280504 79523152 20409316 80% /data
none 5120 2564 2556 51% /dev
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.
"The mass of ignorant Negroes still breed carelessly and
disastrously, so that the increase among Negroes, even more than
the increase among whites, is from that portion of the population
least intelligent and fit, and least able to rear their children
properly."
W.E.B. DuBois (co-founder of the NAACP), 1932 |
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Ron Johnson
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 1190
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:30 am Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 11:29 +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
| Quote: | md@Linux.IT (Marco d'Itri) schrieb:
On Feb 09, Norbert Tretkowski <tretkowski@inittab.de> wrote:
File a bugreport... /etc/init.d/udev says:
Don't.
# /.dev is used by /sbin/MAKEDEV to access the real /dev directory.
# if you don't like this, remove /.dev/.
"Remove /.dev/" does not mean "rm -rf it".
Considering that the line above says "to access the real /dev
directory", I think that the message is very clear.
Considering that not every user knows about bind-mount, and might be
confused and think that it is "something like" a symlink, I think that
this is worth some better documentation. I would suggest:
# If you don't like this, umount /.dev/ and remove the empty directory.
|
This does not excuse the fact that someone with (a) root access,
and (b) without the proper knowledge, went around rm'ing things.
Hopefully, this isn't wildly offensive to Germans and Austrians:
Der machine is diggen by experten only. Is nicht fur geverken by
das dumpkopfen. Das rubber necken sightseenen keepen das cotton-
picken hands in das pockets. So relaxen, und vatchen das blinkenlights.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.
"Today, it is not only that our kings do not know mathematics,
but our philosophers do not know mathematics."
Julius Robert Oppenheimer (1904-1967) |
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Frank Küster
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 11:29 +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
md@Linux.IT (Marco d'Itri) schrieb:
On Feb 09, Norbert Tretkowski <tretkowski@inittab.de> wrote:
File a bugreport... /etc/init.d/udev says:
Don't.
# /.dev is used by /sbin/MAKEDEV to access the real /dev directory.
# if you don't like this, remove /.dev/.
"Remove /.dev/" does not mean "rm -rf it".
Considering that the line above says "to access the real /dev
directory", I think that the message is very clear.
Considering that not every user knows about bind-mount, and might be
confused and think that it is "something like" a symlink, I think that
this is worth some better documentation. I would suggest:
# If you don't like this, umount /.dev/ and remove the empty directory.
This does not excuse the fact that someone with (a) root access,
and (b) without the proper knowledge, went around rm'ing things.
|
I thought Debian was a distribution targetted at a wide audience,
including experienced server admins, and home users without any training
or special knowledge.
Of course there are some things we must expect from our users. But I
wouldn't count "understanding of bind-mount" among that. What we can
expect it that they read documentation, and therefore documentation
should be as clear as possible.
I don't want to "excuse" if someone who has insufficient knowledge
messes up their system. But I think if we can easily help such clueless
users, we should do it - there's no excuse for our not doing it, either.
| Quote: | Hopefully, this isn't wildly offensive to Germans and Austrians:
|
No, at least not to me. I don't understand it.
Regards, Frank
--
Frank Küster
Inst. f. Biochemie der Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer |
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Steve Greenland
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 126
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:50 pm Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On 10-Feb-05, 08:01 (CST), Frank K?ster <frank@debian.org> wrote:
| Quote: | This does not excuse the fact that someone with (a) root access,
and (b) without the proper knowledge, went around rm'ing things.
I thought Debian was a distribution targetted at a wide audience,
including experienced server admins, and home users without any training
or special knowledge.
|
Sure. But if one is just a user w/o training, then one shouldn't be
deleting random parts of the file systems.
Consider this:
"I don't know much about cars, just how to drive one. I looked under the
hood, and there were all these messy wires every where. I didn't like
the way it looked, so I cut them all out. Now my car won't start."
It's the *same* *thing*.
Steve
--
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world. -- seen on the net
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Roberto Sanchez
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1211
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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Quoting Frank Küster <frank@debian.org>:
| Quote: | Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 11:29 +0100, Frank Küster wrote:
# If you don't like this, umount /.dev/ and remove the empty directory.
This does not excuse the fact that someone with (a) root access,
and (b) without the proper knowledge, went around rm'ing things.
I thought Debian was a distribution targetted at a wide audience,
including experienced server admins, and home users without any training
or special knowledge.
I can agree with this. |
| Quote: | Of course there are some things we must expect from our users. But I
wouldn't count "understanding of bind-mount" among that. What we can
expect it that they read documentation, and therefore documentation
should be as clear as possible.
Again, I agree. |
| Quote: | I don't want to "excuse" if someone who has insufficient knowledge
messes up their system. But I think if we can easily help such clueless
users, we should do it - there's no excuse for our not doing it, either.
That is true. But really, I thank that what happened shows a lack of common |
sense. There is little helping that. Imagine that you take your car to
get serviced. The mechanic replaces some part. Next time you open the hood,
you see a part you don't recognize. You decide to snap it off. Next time
you try to start the car, it won't. You call the mechanic and tell him you
snapped off a part he installed becuase you did not recognize it. He would
laugh at you.
Really. Would it have been so difficult to post a quick message to the mailing
list: "Hey, I found this /.udev directory on my system. Does anyone know why
it is there? Is it safe to remove?" That would have gone long way. You can't
"shoot first, ask questions later" without expecting that you will occasionally
do something you did not mean to do.
-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Sanchez
http://familiasanchez.net/~sanchezr
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
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On 10 February 2005 15:31 (CST), Steve Greenland wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Consider this:
"I don't know much about cars, just how to drive one. I looked under the
hood, and there were all these messy wires every where. I didn't like
the way it looked, so I cut them all out. Now my car won't start."
It's the *same* *thing*.
[...] |
Well... not really... it's something like this:
"I don't know much about cars, just how to drive one. I looked under the hood,
and there were all the messy wires everywhere. And I remember, that one of
them wasn't there when i looked there last time, so I cut this one out."
Regards.
--
Lech Karol Paw³aszek <ike>
"You will never see me fall from grace..." [KoRn] |
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Norbert Tretkowski
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject:
Re: what is /.udev for ?
|
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* Steve Greenland wrote:
| Quote: | On 10-Feb-05, 08:01 (CST), Frank K?ster <frank@debian.org> wrote:
This does not excuse the fact that someone with (a) root access,
and (b) without the proper knowledge, went around rm'ing things.
I thought Debian was a distribution targetted at a wide audience,
including experienced server admins, and home users without any training
or special knowledge.
Sure. But if one is just a user w/o training, then one shouldn't be
deleting random parts of the file systems.
Consider this:
"I don't know much about cars, just how to drive one. I looked under the
hood, and there were all these messy wires every where. I didn't like
the way it looked, so I cut them all out. Now my car won't start."
It's the *same* *thing*.
|
There's no label saying "if you don't like these wires, remove them".
Norbert
--
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