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Chris Cheney
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:00 am Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 01:14:09PM +0000, Brian M. Carlson wrote:
| Quote: | I think this is an awful idea. This means that developers will no longer
test their packages before uploading, and we will have more bugs than
before. Why build X [0] when you don't "have to"?
[0] No attack on Branden, but it's the largest package I could think
of.
|
You already don't have to build any arch packages, just indep. Its just
not widely publicized that it works, oops now it is.  I don't know if
it was ever actually technically required that you upload arch packages.
Chris
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Kurt Roeckx
*nix forums addict
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 12:47:28PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
| Quote: | It would be better to set up a arch-indep
autobuilder (on a FAST machine that can handle pbuilder's unpacking of
chroots, so that chroot crappage won't happen so often) and file FTBFS
automatically.
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We build all binary all packages as part of the amd64 port. All
that fail to build should have been filed in the BTS, although
I'm ussualy slower looking at those package than others.
Kurt
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Henrique de Moraes Holsch
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 541
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
Then we agree :)
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
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Frederik Dannemare
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Friday 04 February 2005 15:59, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
| Quote: | Frederik Dannemare wrote:
[snip]
Always build packages for uploads in a clean environment (a fresh
chroot if nothing else is available).
I absolutely agree. But it still doesn't have to be 100%
problem-free (letting buildd build all packages on all archs for
distribution would still be preferred, IMO).
For instance, the issue with nvidia and building gl apps I
mentioned: I have a sid chroot (debootstrap) on my sarge desktop
machine which uses the nvidia driver. Trying to start X in the
chroot with the normal nv driver failed due to nvidia already being
loaded on that machine (I forget what the exact errors were - it's
a while ago now).
Then use another chroot, only for package builds. This will also
catch missing build-deps better.
|
True. Like I said, I'm not saying there's no work-arounds for what I
experienced. My point is merely that I think in the end it is better to
let the buildd do all build for all archs. I.e. we continue current way
of uploading, but buildd will rebuild the uploaded bin (most often x86
I guess) to ensure a proper build in a clean env - just like you
suggested in your previous respons.
--
Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik@dannemare.net
http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Frederik+Dannemare
http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk
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Frederik Dannemare
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Friday 04 February 2005 15:47, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
On Friday 04 February 2005 15:02, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
As of right now it is troublesome to build e.g. gl stuff as a
maintainer if you are using the nvidia drivers on your system.
I'm sure there are many, many other scenarios to choose from.
Well, you CAN setup a clean sid pbuilder/chroot, you know... In
fact, chances are you should.
I actually do. But do all developers?
Not all. But some of those who don't, watch like hawks the
buildd-reports, so the arch-dep packages are fixed ASAP.
If people don't do even THAT much, you want them to have the
possibility of uploading source-only?
[ snip ] |
No. That was not my intend. Read
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/02/msg00199.html
--
Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik@dannemare.net
http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Frederik+Dannemare
http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk
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Thiemo Seufer
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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Frederik Dannemare wrote:
[snip]
| Quote: | Always build packages for uploads in a clean environment (a fresh
chroot if nothing else is available).
I absolutely agree. But it still doesn't have to be 100% problem-free
(letting buildd build all packages on all archs for distribution would
still be preferred, IMO).
For instance, the issue with nvidia and building gl apps I mentioned: I
have a sid chroot (debootstrap) on my sarge desktop machine which uses
the nvidia driver. Trying to start X in the chroot with the normal nv
driver failed due to nvidia already being loaded on that machine (I
forget what the exact errors were - it's a while ago now).
|
Then use another chroot, only for package builds. This will also catch
missing build-deps better.
Thiemo
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Christoph Berg
*nix forums addict
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:10 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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Re: Frederik Dannemare in <200502041544.10472.frederik@dannemare.net>
| Quote: | For instance, the issue with nvidia and building gl apps I mentioned: I
have a sid chroot (debootstrap) on my sarge desktop machine which uses
the nvidia driver. Trying to start X in the chroot with the normal nv
driver failed due to nvidia already being loaded on that machine (I
forget what the exact errors were - it's a while ago now). Thus, in
order to have a useable X in my chroot (I need it for various reasons),
|
Isn't it enough to chroot there and say DISPLAY=localhost:0? (You
might have to turn on tcp listening if you don't want to use ssh
X11 forwarding or similar.)
Christoph
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cb@df7cb.de | http://www.df7cb.de/ |
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Henrique de Moraes Holsch
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 541
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
| Quote: | uploading source-only? It would be better to set up a arch-indep
autobuilder (on a FAST machine that can handle pbuilder's unpacking of
|
Which does *not* upload the packages. Better write it just in case
someone didn't get the idea...
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
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Henrique de Moraes Holsch
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 541
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:50 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
| Quote: | On Friday 04 February 2005 15:02, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
As of right now it is troublesome to build e.g. gl stuff as a
maintainer if you are using the nvidia drivers on your system. I'm
sure there are many, many other scenarios to choose from.
Well, you CAN setup a clean sid pbuilder/chroot, you know... In
fact, chances are you should.
I actually do. But do all developers?
|
Not all. But some of those who don't, watch like hawks the buildd-reports,
so the arch-dep packages are fixed ASAP.
If people don't do even THAT much, you want them to have the possibility of
uploading source-only? It would be better to set up a arch-indep
autobuilder (on a FAST machine that can handle pbuilder's unpacking of
chroots, so that chroot crappage won't happen so often) and file FTBFS
automatically.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
--
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with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org |
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Frederik Dannemare
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:50 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
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On Friday 04 February 2005 15:02, Thiemo Seufer wrote:
| Quote: | Frederik Dannemare wrote:
[snip]
I surely hope they would still do so. Another option could simply
be to proceed with the current way of uploading - but then let the
buildd rebuild the uploaded binary. Or is that somehow not
feasible?
Actually, requiring a binary upload _plus_ rebuilding it would be
better,
|
yes, that would be the way to do it, IMO.
| Quote: | it allows to compare the packages and warn if the results
are too different. (It's a warning, not an error, because version
skew of build-deps and build-essential packages can introduce some
changes.)
As of right now it is troublesome to build e.g. gl stuff as a
maintainer if you are using the nvidia drivers on your system. I'm
sure there are many, many other scenarios to choose from.
Always build packages for uploads in a clean environment (a fresh
chroot if nothing else is available).
|
I absolutely agree. But it still doesn't have to be 100% problem-free
(letting buildd build all packages on all archs for distribution would
still be preferred, IMO).
For instance, the issue with nvidia and building gl apps I mentioned: I
have a sid chroot (debootstrap) on my sarge desktop machine which uses
the nvidia driver. Trying to start X in the chroot with the normal nv
driver failed due to nvidia already being loaded on that machine (I
forget what the exact errors were - it's a while ago now). Thus, in
order to have a useable X in my chroot (I need it for various reasons),
I had to install and use the nvidia driver there as well, which in turn
can case the aforementioned problems when building gl packages for
distribution. I'm not saying I cannot find work-arounds - just that
having buildd (re)building everything would still be preferred (less
worries for maintainers).
--
Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik@dannemare.net
http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Frederik+Dannemare
http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk
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Frederik Dannemare
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12
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Thiemo Seufer
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:20 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
|
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Frederik Dannemare wrote:
[snip]
| Quote: | I surely hope they would still do so. Another option could simply be to
proceed with the current way of uploading - but then let the buildd
rebuild the uploaded binary. Or is that somehow not feasible?
|
Actually, requiring a binary upload _plus_ rebuilding it would be
better, it allows to compare the packages and warn if the results
are too different. (It's a warning, not an error, because version
skew of build-deps and build-essential packages can introduce some
changes.)
| Quote: | As of right now it is troublesome to build e.g. gl stuff as a maintainer
if you are using the nvidia drivers on your system. I'm sure there are
many, many other scenarios to choose from.
|
Always build packages for uploads in a clean environment (a fresh
chroot if nothing else is available).
Thiemo
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Henrique de Moraes Holsch
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 541
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
|
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|
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
| Quote: | As of right now it is troublesome to build e.g. gl stuff as a maintainer
if you are using the nvidia drivers on your system. I'm sure there are
many, many other scenarios to choose from.
|
Well, you CAN setup a clean sid pbuilder/chroot, you know... In fact,
chances are you should.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh
--
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with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org |
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Frederik Dannemare
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
|
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|
On Friday 04 February 2005 14:14, Brian M. Carlson wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 2005-02-04 at 13:26 +0100, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
On Friday 04 February 2005 02:30, Steve Langasek wrote:
On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 04:05:19PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
Op do, 03-02-2005 te 15:44 +0100, schreef Frederik Dannemare:
which
requires no imprimatur from the DPL, before you start
throwing packages that have never even been tested by their
maintainer at us faster than we already get them.
I see your point if it is really the case that uploads are
being done without proper testing from the maintainer
himself/herself.
His point is still valid even if all maintainers do proper
testing. You can't be expected as a maintainer to be able to
test /every/ possible or impossible situation in which a
package could be used. And then I'm not even talking about
packages that should conflict with eachother but don't, because
the maintainer of the new package didn't know that a file in
his package happens to have the same name as a different file
in a completely unrelated package...
What I know is that every time an ftpmaster processes a batch of
NEW packages, a percentage of them wind up in testing with
serious bugs for failing to declare build-dependencies, and then
the release team has to track these bugs.
Since the testing scripts have no way to distinguish an
architecture-specific package from a broken binary that only
builds on the maintainer's system, the only strategies I can
think of off-hand that would be effective at reducing this
problem are to disallow all binary uploads from maintainers,
[ snip ]
Yes, much better to have everything built by the buildd in a clean
env, IMO. This would be on my wishlist for post-sarge. This topic
was also discussed (for other reasons, though; security concerns, I
think it was) last summer.
I think this is an awful idea. This means that developers will no
longer test their packages before uploading,
[ snip ] |
I surely hope they would still do so. Another option could simply be to
proceed with the current way of uploading - but then let the buildd
rebuild the uploaded binary. Or is that somehow not feasible?
As of right now it is troublesome to build e.g. gl stuff as a maintainer
if you are using the nvidia drivers on your system. I'm sure there are
many, many other scenarios to choose from.
Best regards,
--
Frederik Dannemare | mailto:frederik@dannemare.net
http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=Frederik+Dannemare
http://frederik.dannemare.net | http://www.linuxworlddomination.dk
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Brian M. Carlson
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 28
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject:
Re: list what's in the NEW queue?
|
|
|
On Fri, 2005-02-04 at 13:26 +0100, Frederik Dannemare wrote:
| Quote: | On Friday 04 February 2005 02:30, Steve Langasek wrote:
On Thu, Feb 03, 2005 at 04:05:19PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
Op do, 03-02-2005 te 15:44 +0100, schreef Frederik Dannemare:
which
requires no imprimatur from the DPL, before you start throwing
packages that have never even been tested by their maintainer
at us faster than we already get them.
I see your point if it is really the case that uploads are being
done without proper testing from the maintainer himself/herself.
His point is still valid even if all maintainers do proper testing.
You can't be expected as a maintainer to be able to test /every/
possible or impossible situation in which a package could be used.
And then I'm not even talking about packages that should conflict
with eachother but don't, because the maintainer of the new package
didn't know that a file in his package happens to have the same
name as a different file in a completely unrelated package...
What I know is that every time an ftpmaster processes a batch of NEW
packages, a percentage of them wind up in testing with serious bugs
for failing to declare build-dependencies, and then the release team
has to track these bugs.
Since the testing scripts have no way to distinguish an
architecture-specific package from a broken binary that only builds
on the maintainer's system, the only strategies I can think of
off-hand that would be effective at reducing this problem are to
disallow all binary uploads from maintainers,
[ snip ]
Yes, much better to have everything built by the buildd in a clean env,
IMO. This would be on my wishlist for post-sarge. This topic was also
discussed (for other reasons, though; security concerns, I think it
was) last summer.
|
I think this is an awful idea. This means that developers will no longer
test their packages before uploading, and we will have more bugs than
before. Why build X [0] when you don't "have to"?
[0] No attack on Branden, but it's the largest package I could think
of.
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