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| Author |
Message |
Tony Finch
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1222
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 Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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On Fri, 21 Jul 2006, W B Hacker wrote:
It does not mention SSL anywhere. It does mention tunnelling, but such
tunnelling would not be visible at the level Exim is operating - think
of port forwarding with ssh or stunnel. Tunnelling protocols have their
own port allocations or protocol numbers, so it would be weird to run them
over port 587.
TLS-on-connect on port 587 is NOT supported by IETF specifications.
Tony.
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Marc Haber
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 04:42:36 +0800, W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org>
wrote:
| Quote: | I *have* "illustrated", but NOT RECOMMENDED use of port 587 with tls_on_connect.
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Well, kindly stop doing this, you're confusing the newbies who will
come back for more support.
Greetings
Marc
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Bill Hacker
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Marc Sherman wrote:
| Quote: | Marc Sherman wrote:
W B Hacker wrote:
Ancient history now. Like it or not, we should move on and use 587.
That's all well and good, Bill, and if you simply advised people not to
open port 465 at all, I wouldn't reply. It's your repeated advise to
people to open 465 for unencrypted/STARTTLS usage, against all
established historical practice, to which I object.
Whoops, I guess I owe Bill a bit of an apology --
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Accepted, thanks.
| Quote: | I was mis-remembering
history here. It's actually your repeated use of tls_on_connect on port
587 that so aggravates me.
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'Repeated use' is not and was not a 'RECOMMENDATION'.
An illustration, observation, or comment on special-case utility is not a
'recommendation' either.
| Quote: | You're welcome to do whatever you want on
your own server, but please do not advise others to configure
tls_on_connect on port 587 on this list without clearly noting that you
are doing something non-standard and against common practice.
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I haven't done so, and do not plan to start. It might irritate the pedantic.
| Quote: | Anyway, sorry about the mixup.
- Marc
|
Let's just stick with current IANA/IETF recommendations and leave history where
it belongs.
Best,
Bill
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Bill Hacker
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Marc Sherman wrote:
| Quote: | W B Hacker wrote:
Ancient history now. Like it or not, we should move on and use 587.
That's all well and good, Bill, and if you simply advised people not to
open port 465 at all, I wouldn't reply. It's your repeated advise to
people to open 465 for unencrypted/STARTTLS usage, against all
established historical practice, to which I object.
- Marc
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You have a reading disability then.
I have neither recommended that, illustrated that, nor done it on production
servers OR MUA settings. We have never used 465 for anything BUT SSL/tls_on-connect.
I *have* "illustrated", but NOT RECOMMENDED use of port 587 with tls_on_connect.
That is not common per established practice, but is tactily supported and *not
prohibited* under the applicable IANA/IETF guidelines for the port.
See RFC 4409:
3.1. Submission Identification
Port 587 is reserved for email message submission as specified in
this document. Messages received on this port are defined to be
submissions. The protocol used is ESMTP [SMTP-MTA, ESMTP], *with
additional restrictions or allowances as specified here*.
..
..
..
3.3. Authorized Submission
"Numerous methods have been used to ensure that only authorized users
are able to submit messages. These methods include authenticated
SMTP, IP address restrictions, *secure IP and other tunnels*,..."
That said, I still do not RECOMMEND *anything* - save familiarizing oneself with
the current IANA or IETF position.
The rest is up to the mailadmin, as IANA/IETF wisely recognize that user-MUA
client to server-MSA host submission is a *local* issue.
RTFRFC
Bill
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Marc Sherman
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Marc Sherman wrote:
| Quote: | W B Hacker wrote:
Ancient history now. Like it or not, we should move on and use 587.
That's all well and good, Bill, and if you simply advised people not to
open port 465 at all, I wouldn't reply. It's your repeated advise to
people to open 465 for unencrypted/STARTTLS usage, against all
established historical practice, to which I object.
|
Whoops, I guess I owe Bill a bit of an apology -- I was mis-remembering
history here. It's actually your repeated use of tls_on_connect on port
587 that so aggravates me. You're welcome to do whatever you want on
your own server, but please do not advise others to configure
tls_on_connect on port 587 on this list without clearly noting that you
are doing something non-standard and against common practice.
Anyway, sorry about the mixup.
- Marc
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Marc Sherman
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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W B Hacker wrote:
| Quote: |
Ancient history now. Like it or not, we should move on and use 587.
|
That's all well and good, Bill, and if you simply advised people not to
open port 465 at all, I wouldn't reply. It's your repeated advise to
people to open 465 for unencrypted/STARTTLS usage, against all
established historical practice, to which I object.
- Marc
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Bill Hacker
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Steffen Heil wrote:
| Quote: | Hi
Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
Please ignore everything Bill says about port 465. He
continues to advise people to ignore established norms and
standards, without warning.
I hope I missunderstand, but otherwise that comment is garbage.
In spite of the fact that it may be agains standards now I also suggest:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
25 is for inter-MTA smtp traffic. (explicit tls optionally, usually no auth)
587 is for "good" MUA to MTA traffic. (explicit tls prefered, only auth)
465 is for "bad" MUA to MTA traffic. (implicit ssl forced, only auth)
There are still clients wich don't do STARTTLS but only implicitSSL.
Some versions of Outlook for example.
If you configure this server only for yourself, drop port 465 completely.
However, if you need to support clients with somehow broken smtp/ssl
implementations, you have no chance to do otherwise.
I cannot afford to drop that many customers, maybe you can...
Regards,
Steffen
|
Can't argue with that - we still keep 465 open for the same reason, simply no
longer configure current MUA to to use it.
But, as you do in calling it "bad MUA to MTA" (I'd be kinder and say 'legacy'
and "MSA") I no longer recommend 'new' use of 465.
Not since the IANA/IETF have officially set a different use for that port (FEB
2006) anyway.
PRIOR to that date - *many* folks fought long and hard to keep smpts on 465.
Whether Herr Sherman likes it or not, that battle is over. IANA have spoken.
Digging out older posts - mine included - is no longer relevant.
Further, the new use IANA have assigned for 465 has caused obviously non-smtp
calls to port 465, which one can expect will increase over time if/as/when the
new 'rendevous' protocol gains acceptance.
Eventually, that may cause enough confusion/needless IP connection load to make
it a good idea to shut that port if NOT offering the new service.
If anyone has ignored 'established practice' - tens of millions of MUA's that
are equipped for smtps / SSL on port 465 - it is the IANA/IETF - not I.
Ancient history now. Like it or not, we should move on and use 587.
Thanks,
Bill
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Bill Hacker
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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xyon wrote:
| Quote: | Whoops, terribly sorry. I just saw this post further down. I don't tend to
use 587, but stick to 465. I think that's what most people do.
|
Feel free to ignore Bill Hacker, but the IANA and IETF are more pervasive:
http://www.iana.org/
http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers
Port 587 - currently the officially recommended port for user-client submission,
is covered here - not that port 25 is still OK too - though many ISP's will
block or divert it:
http://www.ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4409.txt
- Section 7 has a table of smtp extensions, listing STARTTLS as a 'MAY'.
- Security issues are covered in Section 9, with back-references to Section 3.
- Section 3 mentions other security methods, including IPSEC and SSL tunneling.
The above will take maybe ten minutes to find and read.
Other RFCs referenced take longer.
The very long history behind it all, if you care, needs the better part of a day
to track down and read.
Exim is fully capable of compliance with all applicable standards - old or new.
BTW, if you don't *like* what IANA and IETF have to say, standard practice is to
attack the messenger.
No sweat, I have broad shoulders.
;-)
"With all thy getting, get thee understanding"
B. C. Forbes
Regards,
Bill Hacker
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Marc Sherman
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Steffen Heil wrote:
| Quote: |
I hope I missunderstand, but otherwise that comment is garbage.
In spite of the fact that it may be agains standards now I also suggest:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
25 is for inter-MTA smtp traffic. (explicit tls optionally, usually no auth)
587 is for "good" MUA to MTA traffic. (explicit tls prefered, only auth)
465 is for "bad" MUA to MTA traffic. (implicit ssl forced, only auth)
There are still clients wich don't do STARTTLS but only implicitSSL.
Some versions of Outlook for example.
|
Sorry, trimmed my quotes too aggressively, and as a result wasn't clear.
Yes, what you and Heiko do is correct. What Bill does (the person Heiko
was responding to), and what he blindly advises everyone else to do
without warning them of the consequences, is wildly out of synch with
the rest of the world.
- Marc
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Steffen Heil
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
|
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Hi
| Quote: | Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
Please ignore everything Bill says about port 465. He
continues to advise people to ignore established norms and
standards, without warning.
|
I hope I missunderstand, but otherwise that comment is garbage.
In spite of the fact that it may be agains standards now I also suggest:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
25 is for inter-MTA smtp traffic. (explicit tls optionally, usually no auth)
587 is for "good" MUA to MTA traffic. (explicit tls prefered, only auth)
465 is for "bad" MUA to MTA traffic. (implicit ssl forced, only auth)
There are still clients wich don't do STARTTLS but only implicitSSL.
Some versions of Outlook for example.
If you configure this server only for yourself, drop port 465 completely.
However, if you need to support clients with somehow broken smtp/ssl
implementations, you have no chance to do otherwise.
I cannot afford to drop that many customers, maybe you can...
Regards,
Steffen |
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xyon
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Whoops, terribly sorry. I just saw this post further down. I don't tend to
use 587, but stick to 465. I think that's what most people do.
--
On Thu, July 20, 2006 09:19, xyon wrote:
| Quote: | I apologize, why is 'tls_on_connect_ports 465' not correct? I've had to
enable that for Outlook (Express) clients since they do not use STARTTLS
on 25. Or at least they didn't when I set things up.
Please forgive me if I've missed something here.
On Thu, July 20, 2006 08:44, Marc Sherman wrote:
Heiko Schlittermann wrote:
Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
Please ignore everything Bill says about port 465. He continues to
advise people to ignore established norms and standards, without
warning.
- Marc
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xyon
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 17
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
|
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|
I apologize, why is 'tls_on_connect_ports 465' not correct? I've had to
enable that for Outlook (Express) clients since they do not use STARTTLS
on 25. Or at least they didn't when I set things up.
Please forgive me if I've missed something here.
On Thu, July 20, 2006 08:44, Marc Sherman wrote:
| Quote: | Heiko Schlittermann wrote:
Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
Please ignore everything Bill says about port 465. He continues to
advise people to ignore established norms and standards, without warning.
- Marc
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Marc Sherman
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 553
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
|
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Heiko Schlittermann wrote:
| Quote: | Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
|
Please ignore everything Bill says about port 465. He continues to
advise people to ignore established norms and standards, without warning.
- Marc
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Bill Hacker
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 427
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:04 am Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
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Heiko Schlittermann wrote:
| Quote: | Hello,
W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> (Do 20 Jul 2006 00:10:34 CEST):
....
just to be more specific (accurate?)
Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
|
Only for the past 5+ months.
;-)
| Quote: | Best regards from Dresden
Viele Grüße aus Dresden
Heiko Schlittermann
|
AFAIK port 465 remains available in nearly all common MUA's, and is the default
if legacy 'SSL' is selected for smtp submission, rahter than 'TLS'.
However, port 465 was reassigned to a Cisco-sponsored service WEF February 2006
- one that has nothing to do with smtp:
urd 465/tcp URL Rendesvous Directory for SSM (Cisco)
igmpv3lite 465/udp IGMP over UDP for SSM
Which leaves 587 is the only 'official' submission port now:
submission 587/tcp Submission
submission 587/udp Submission
# [RFC4409]
Bill
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Heiko Schlittermann
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 16 Feb 2005
Posts: 102
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:42 am Post subject:
Re: Using TLS to encrypt SMTP traffic...
|
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|
Hello,
W B Hacker <wbh@conducive.org> (Do 20 Jul 2006 00:10:34 CEST):
....
just to be more specific (accurate?)
| Quote: | Typical settings include:
daemon_smtp_ports = 25 : 465 : 587
|
Typical clients use START_TLS on port 25, but tls-on-connect on 465
(what about 587?). So with the above setting I'd strongly recommend
tls_on_connect_ports = 465
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Best regards from Dresden
Viele Grüße aus Dresden
Heiko Schlittermann
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