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Kevin Handy
*nix forums addict
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 65
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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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Bob Koehler wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not even sure if there are enough wires on an MMJ or RJ11 jack
to handle hardware flow control. I'm quite sure I couldn't be
bothered to spend my customer's money make it work just because
emacs wanted it that way.
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MMJ has (DSR, RTS), but a lot of the physical hardware
doesn't pass them, like the wall plates that DEC sold.
There were punch-down points for the wires, but they
didn't connect to the jack.
Many RS-232 cables were 3-wire only. Trying to use emacs
on one of these was a mess. You either got the commands,
you got to see all your data, or you ran slow. Most people
I know just used something other than emacs.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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In article <1153232629.948994.326290@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes:
| Quote: |
As he quite correctly points out, telling VMS to ignore soft flow
control might make other apps lose data. Therefore, I made a little DCL
script to do the set terminal/nohostsync/nottysync, run emacs, and then
reset the term parameters. Works for me, but I might be missing
something here.
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We had a fellow try setting a real VT (300 or 400 series, I don't
recall which) on a real 9600 baud serial terminal server (200 or
300 vintage) to stop using XON/XOFF via it's setup menu. Next thing
he was in my office asking how to get his connection to work again.
I told him to put it back the way it was.
The he mapped the VT "Find" key to the emacs iterative search forward
function and was happy ever after.
I'm not even sure if there are enough wires on an MMJ or RJ11 jack
to handle hardware flow control. I'm quite sure I couldn't be
bothered to spend my customer's money make it work just because
emacs wanted it that way. |
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Tom Linden
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 841
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:23:50 -0700, <sampsal@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Received this from a Mr Forrest Kenney privately, and it did fix my
problem:
====== SNIP ======> As others pointed out VMS by default uses Xon/Xoff for flow control
your choice are:
1) Remap the CTRL-S and CTRL-Q commands to something else. That is
what
most Emacs users on VMS usually do.
2) Use set terminal/nohostsync/nottysync tt: That will disable
Xon/Xoff flow control in VMS. But may not disable it for your
telnet connection to VMS. Also disabling Xon/Xoff means that you
run the risk of character loss on output. Less likely these days
but a real concern with slow connections or slow emulators.
Forrest Kenney
OpenVMS one time terminal driver developer
====== END SNIP =====
As he quite correctly points out, telling VMS to ignore soft flow
control might make other apps lose data. Therefore, I made a little DCL
script to do the set terminal/nohostsync/nottysync, run emacs, and then
reset the term parameters. Works for me, but I might be missing
something here.
Sampsa
BTW, which version of emacs are you running? |
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sampsal@gmail.com
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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Received this from a Mr Forrest Kenney privately, and it did fix my
problem:
====== SNIP =======
As others pointed out VMS by default uses Xon/Xoff for flow control
your choice are:
1) Remap the CTRL-S and CTRL-Q commands to something else. That is
what
most Emacs users on VMS usually do.
2) Use set terminal/nohostsync/nottysync tt: That will disable
Xon/Xoff flow control in VMS. But may not disable it for your
telnet connection to VMS. Also disabling Xon/Xoff means that you
run the risk of character loss on output. Less likely these days
but a real concern with slow connections or slow emulators.
Forrest Kenney
OpenVMS one time terminal driver developer
====== END SNIP ======
As he quite correctly points out, telling VMS to ignore soft flow
control might make other apps lose data. Therefore, I made a little DCL
script to do the set terminal/nohostsync/nottysync, run emacs, and then
reset the term parameters. Works for me, but I might be missing
something here.
Sampsa |
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Paul Sture
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 357
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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Rich Alderson wrote:
| Quote: | koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
In article <1153059083.982684.77830@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
sampsal@gmail.com writes:
I just finished installing MicroEMACS 3.12 on my VMS box (7.3-1 if
relevant) and it works fine except for the fact that something
somewhere keeps grabbing the ^S chars sent, and the terminal connection
then locks up until I hit ^Q. I assume this is to do with incorrectly
interpreted XON/XOFF characters.
Terminal.app is eating them for you. This can easily be changed in the
Preferences.
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By default, Terminal.app certainly does *not* "eat them". I can't find a
setting for this in Preferences either. |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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In article <mddodvn3jgz.fsf@panix5.panix.com>, Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> writes:
| Quote: |
No, the world did not ignore his point of view, nor was it particularly unique.
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Right, that's why all those DB25's were wired with so few wires.
Oh, you meant on _your_ systems. I think the OP does not have one of
your systems.
| Quote: | Odd. I've been using EMACS (under Tops-20 and ITS), GNU Emacs (under 8 or 9
different versions of Unix, Tops-20, and 4 different versions of Windows),
microEmacs, Gosling Emacs, elle, and Fred, since 1978. I frequently use ^Q,
and I've never re-mapped incremental search off of ^S.
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When you run emacs on a system like Windows, you're not generally
running it over a serial line, you're usually only running it over
the keyboard cable. Keyboard cables don't use XON/XOFF for flow
control. And all those other systems, yes, you can set them up to
use hardware flow controls instead of XON/XOFF.
But neither you nor Stallman can force the whole world to do it that
way.
| Quote: | But then, when it comes to EMACS, I probably know what I'm talking about.
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Fine. How much do you know about serial line protocols, which is the
issue here? |
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Rich Alderson
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
| Quote: | In article <1153059083.982684.77830@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
sampsal@gmail.com writes:
I just finished installing MicroEMACS 3.12 on my VMS box (7.3-1 if
relevant) and it works fine except for the fact that something
somewhere keeps grabbing the ^S chars sent, and the terminal connection
then locks up until I hit ^Q. I assume this is to do with incorrectly
interpreted XON/XOFF characters.
|
Terminal.app is eating them for you. This can easily be changed in the
Preferences.
| Quote: | The XON/XOFF characters are being correctly interpretted as control
flow. The use of these characters in emacs is a classic example of
bad design. The author of emacs insisted that only hardware should be
used as flow control and the world ignored his unique point of view.
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No, the world did not ignore his point of view, nor was it particularly unique.
| Quote: | Folks using emacs with a system that does XON/XOFF as flow control
simply redefine the related functions to other keys. Very few emacs
users ever use ^Q. Generally they define some function key (emacs
knows they exist, but doesn't preassign much to them) to do the
iterative search forward routine.
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Odd. I've been using EMACS (under Tops-20 and ITS), GNU Emacs (under 8 or 9
different versions of Unix, Tops-20, and 4 different versions of Windows),
microEmacs, Gosling Emacs, elle, and Fred, since 1978. I frequently use ^Q,
and I've never re-mapped incremental search off of ^S.
But then, when it comes to EMACS, I probably know what I'm talking about.
Old .sig, still true:
Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
--
Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against |
"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and |
--Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | |
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Bob Koehler
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1078
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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In article <1153059083.982684.77830@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | Hi,
I just finished installing MicroEMACS 3.12 on my VMS box (7.3-1 if
relevant) and it works fine except for the fact that something
somewhere keeps grabbing the ^S chars sent, and the terminal connection
then locks up until I hit ^Q. I assume this is to do with incorrectly
interpreted XON/XOFF characters.
|
The XON/XOFF characters are being correctly interpretted as control
flow. The use of these characters in emacs is a classic example of
bad design. The author of emacs insisted that only hardware should be
used as flow control and the world ignored his unique point of view.
Folks using emacs with a system that does XON/XOFF as flow control
simply redefine the related functions to other keys. Very few emacs
users ever use ^Q. Generally they define some function key (emacs
knows they exist, but doesn't preassign much to them) to do the
iterative search forward routine. |
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Ken Robinson
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 289
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:21 am Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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On 16 Jul 2006 15:56:53 -0700, sampsal@gmail.com <sampsal@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I've played around with SET/TERMINAL but to no avail. The terminal
program in use is Terminal.app on Mac OS X (10.4.7).
How do you physically connect the mac to the VMS box ? Is it via a
serial port or some ethernet (lat, telnet ?)
It's telnet over Ethernet.
For proper XON-XOFF in both directions, you need
$ SET TERMINAL /HOSTSYNC/TTSYNC
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The problem here is that Emacs uses ^S & ^Q for commands and VMS also
uses the to stop and start output to the terminal.
Switching to another terminal emulator won't help. What you need to do
before you start Emacs is to issue the command:
$ set ter/nottsync
which disables ^S/^Q.
Here is the entry from
$ help set ter/ttsync
SET
TERMINAL
/TTSYNC
/TTSYNC (default)
/NOTTSYNC
Controls whether transmitting to the terminal is stopped when
Ctrl/S is pressed and resumes transmission when Ctrl/Q is
pressed.
If you are finding other control characters that are used by Emacs,
but are being captured by VMS first, you can do a
$ set term/pasthru
$ help set ter/pas
SET
TERMINAL
/PASTHRU
/PASTHRU
/NOPASTHRU (default)
Controls whether the terminal passes all data (including tabs,
carriage returns, line feeds, and control characters) to an
application program as binary data. The setting of /TTSYNC is
allowed.
Make sure that you spell both these qualifiers exactly as they
appear in the text.
Or you can switch to a more VMS friendly editor.
Ken |
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sampsal@gmail.com
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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| Quote: | I've played around with SET/TERMINAL but to no avail. The terminal
program in use is Terminal.app on Mac OS X (10.4.7).
How do you physically connect the mac to the VMS box ? Is it via a
serial port or some ethernet (lat, telnet ?)
|
It's telnet over Ethernet.
| Quote: | For proper XON-XOFF in both directions, you need
$ SET TERMINAL /HOSTSYNC/TTSYNC
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Tried that, doesn't help my particular case, which leads us neatly
onto...
| Quote: | If the scrolling stops but doesn't restart on its own, it could be that
something is eating yor control-Qs or that the terminal program doesn't
actually send a control-Q once its buffer has been emptied and it is
ready again to receive.
|
Basically, the problem I'm having is that when I press ^X^S to save in
uEmacs, it blocks input until I hit Q. It might be that my terminal
program is reacting to the echoed ^S. Hmm. Will try another terminal
emulator.
Sampsa |
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JF Mezei
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 2556
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject:
Re: Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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sampsal@gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | somewhere keeps grabbing the ^S chars sent, and the terminal connection
then locks up until I hit ^Q. I assume this is to do with incorrectly
interpreted XON/XOFF characters.
I've played around with SET/TERMINAL but to no avail. The terminal
program in use is Terminal.app on Mac OS X (10.4.7).
|
How do you physically connect the mac to the VMS box ? Is it via a
serial port or some ethernet (lat, telnet ?)
For proper XON-XOFF in both directions, you need
$ SET TERMINAL /HOSTSYNC/TTSYNC
If the scrolling stops but doesn't restart on its own, it could be that
something is eating yor control-Qs or that the terminal program doesn't
actually send a control-Q once its buffer has been emptied and it is
ready again to receive. |
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sampsal@gmail.com
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:
Greenhorn question: XON/XOFF control chars (when in MicroEMACS)
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Hi,
I just finished installing MicroEMACS 3.12 on my VMS box (7.3-1 if
relevant) and it works fine except for the fact that something
somewhere keeps grabbing the ^S chars sent, and the terminal connection
then locks up until I hit ^Q. I assume this is to do with incorrectly
interpreted XON/XOFF characters.
I've played around with SET/TERMINAL but to no avail. The terminal
program in use is Terminal.app on Mac OS X (10.4.7).
Thanks in advance,
Sampsa |
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