|
|
|
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
 Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:11 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
Matthias Kirchhart wrote:
| Quote: | I don't think that Bush seriously plans a nuclear war. In my opinion this is
just for scaring Iran. I don't think that Bush would dare to start a
nuclear attack.
|
I would very much like to believe that. But GWB has said otherwise.
And I think that we know that he likes to be known as a man of his word,
at least when he makes threats. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:56 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
Matthias Kirchhart wrote:
| Quote: | You are not keyed in to the scale of this thing, Matthias.
Of course not. You are the only one that is. You will be able to overthrow
the Bush administration by sending your best friends some nice emails to
make them go to their local congressmen. Yeah man. I think if I am not
keyed in to the scale of this thing, you aren't either.
|
One thing I think that I want to say to you, and this is probably as
good a place as any, is that he, President Bush is controlling and
increasingly modifying the news that we can see here in US. Especially
now, it seems very important to me to be able to freely communicate
with people like yourself who are intelligent and articulate, and
especially, have access to news outside of the US that is not being
manipulated by GWB or the NSA.
Rupert Murdock is a billionaire who runs and closely controls an entire
network of news distributors. He has publicly stated that (to the
effect) whoever controls the news media can control the world. Think
about that. He owns and operates FOX news which has been a major and
tireless supporter of this administration. Tony Snow was recently
appointed by GWB as Press Secretary. Snow came directly out of the FOX
news organization.
The evidence that you helped me find shows me that this administration
is now actively _changing_ news pages (ie. Google News) to hide content
that they don't want US Americans to read. I believe this is truly
sinister.
GWB has asserted his right to wiretap without warrant or oversight. If
he truly believed that, and that US Americans would also agree, then
there would be no need to hide the news coverage of that issue from US
Americans. When I go to news.google.de, the pages that I get are
different than what you get because the HTML source has been modified
on-the-fly in transit by the Narus supercomputers or whatever they are,
to hide coverage of the wiretap issue from US American readers.
The doors are closing on us, and they are closing very quickly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:45 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
|
Hm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:42 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
responder wrote:
My mother said make your words soft and palatable. You never know when
you might be forced to eat them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
M. Trimble
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
responder wrote:
| Quote: | M. Trimble wrote:
responder wrote:
If you enter the following URL into your web browser (I hope it is
Firefox, although there seems to be some confusion at the moment about
which version of Firefox is now the right one to use
-http://secunia.com/advisories/19698/)
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&gl=us
- or just -
news.google.com
you and I should receive exactly the same page from exactly the same
server, if we do it at the exact same second. I think the actual reality
is that they have many servers around the country, serving essentially
similar (but not necessarily identical) content. The pages are
automatically and dynamically generated, so that some variation is to be
expected from different locations and at different times. But the
fundamental layout and content is the same Internationally. (Except in
China, and unfortunately, now in the US.)...
Best regards.
God bless us and save us all.
I will try to personally answer any and all e-mail, but the best place to
talk is right here on the newsgroup.
|
Not sure how to interpret this one. I don't for one second discount your
observations as to differences, disappearance of pages, and the like. I've
been working on and around computers for a long time, and I have had
similarly odd things happen to me. And that's just on local machines. The
'net just adds new dimensions in odd behavior.
What I do question is your attribution of cause. Note: I'm not saying you
are wrong. Nor am I accusing you of lying (please refer to the last
paragraph). By theory, searcher A in Canada should get exactly the same
result as searcher B in Germany for the same set of search terms entered
into google in the same order at the same time. By theory. That might not
be the case because of a) differences in servers used [has to do with load
balancing; two servers might not update at the same time, even if they're
in the same room together, simply to cut down on traffic load]; b)
differences in client machine [for experiment, get on a linux box, and try
to install yahoo messenger, then do the same thing on a windows box if you
can get to one]; c) presence or absence of cache files on the client
machine [that's tripped me up several times]; d) other, human-caused, but
not human-intended reason [this is a blanket category for any odd glitch in
software and or hardware that was not intentionally put there, but which
would still cause a difference]; e) human malice [request or order by other
party - including government, private individual, other company].
By Occam's Razor, I would choose one or more of the first four explanations
before going to the fifth one. Would you please consider the same?
Thanks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
M. Trimble wrote:
| Quote: | responder wrote:
M. Trimble wrote:
responder wrote:
If you enter the following URL into your web browser (I hope it is
Firefox, although there seems to be some confusion at the moment about
which version of Firefox is now the right one to use
-http://secunia.com/advisories/19698/)
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&gl=us
- or just -
news.google.com
you and I should receive exactly the same page from exactly the same
server, if we do it at the exact same second. I think the actual reality
is that they have many servers around the country, serving essentially
similar (but not necessarily identical) content. The pages are
automatically and dynamically generated, so that some variation is to be
expected from different locations and at different times. But the
fundamental layout and content is the same Internationally. (Except in
China, and unfortunately, now in the US.)...
Best regards.
God bless us and save us all.
I will try to personally answer any and all e-mail, but the best place to
talk is right here on the newsgroup.
Not sure how to interpret this one. I don't for one second discount your
observations as to differences, disappearance of pages, and the like. I've
been working on and around computers for a long time, and I have had
similarly odd things happen to me. And that's just on local machines. The
'net just adds new dimensions in odd behavior.
What I do question is your attribution of cause. Note: I'm not saying you
are wrong. Nor am I accusing you of lying (please refer to the last
paragraph). By theory, searcher A in Canada should get exactly the same
result as searcher B in Germany for the same set of search terms entered
into google in the same order at the same time. By theory. That might not
be the case because of a) differences in servers used [has to do with load
balancing; two servers might not update at the same time, even if they're
in the same room together, simply to cut down on traffic load]; b)
differences in client machine [for experiment, get on a linux box, and try
to install yahoo messenger, then do the same thing on a windows box if you
can get to one]; c) presence or absence of cache files on the client
machine [that's tripped me up several times]; d) other, human-caused, but
not human-intended reason [this is a blanket category for any odd glitch in
software and or hardware that was not intentionally put there, but which
would still cause a difference]; e) human malice [request or order by other
party - including government, private individual, other company].
By Occam's Razor, I would choose one or more of the first four explanations
before going to the fifth one. Would you please consider the same?
Thanks
|
Yes, of course. I have already tried to consider other explanations. To
save me some possibly redundant typing, I ask that you help me do this by
examining the messages in thread posted 4/29 and 4/30.
Firstly, the differences found were not trivial or minor. Google news
(news.google.com, news.google.de, news.google.ca) is a very sophisticated
service and I doubt that I (and maybe you) will ever know all details of
their business.
I have however found them to be highly reliable (until now). And I would
also note that Google did acknowledge my inquiry, but have not given any
substantive response.
Beyond this, there will always be enough unknowns and unknowables so that
this probably cannot be mathematically "proven", and certainly not as to
the cause. Even if I had ample time to do this rigorously, I doubt my own
ability to develop a highly polished presentation. In short, you and
others are free to believe what you wish, and nothing I can say or write
can force any belief you do not want to accept. I will however try to
review the facts as I found them.
I would invite you to do the research as I did, with the help of
correspondents in other countries. Even this may not convince you, as
situations may change, and any "evidence" you do find will be anecdotal in
nature.
a) I used the three different servers (previously defined). All showed
the referenced top group of stories (EFF - AT&T Lawsuit) on 4/28 and early
on 4/29. My primary server stopped displaying that group sometime in the
evening on 4/29. The server in Germany did still display that group of
links initially when I accessed that server from a Tor node in Germany. I
was unable to get a node in Canada, but accessed the Canadian server from
US locations. The Canadian server served a page with the group shown,
however some links were (may I say crudely) disabled. I looked at the
HTML page sources. I checked the differences with a correspondent in
Canada. His pages from the same(?) server were not disabled. I don't know
how to summarize this in the context that you ask other than that this was
significant and obviously not result of any single point failure.
b) I used only one set of computer systems that I believe to be reliable.
I have no expectation that what I saw could have originated locally.
There is probably room to verify some things from different locations. I
would have expected some other readers to have already pointed out any
obvious differences in what they were seeing.
c) Caches where cleared several times during and since. Even if they were
not, cached files would not have caused the faulty HTML or disappearance
of the content.
d) I was careful. My systems have not shown any other signs, as
instability (etc?). I think I am fairly knowledgeable about many of the
things that could potentially affect operations, and have seen no other
symptoms of problems. Everything here is working "tip-top" apparently. If
anyone can think of an alternate plausible scenario, I am listening.
e) My friendly correspondent, I do understand your reluctance. I think
that the obvious answer in this case is the correct answer.
Last I checked, several days ago the eff.org web site was still up and had
links to court documents. What they do not have is the comprehensive
links to news and editorial content.
If you think you would like to try, I may be able to set up some
conference calls with correspondents in other countries so we could verify
some content issues in real time. However, this is finals week in many
places, and time is at a premium for many of us.
Thanks for writing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kevin
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 340
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
responder <no@spam.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | Matthias Kirchhart wrote:
I don't think that Bush seriously plans a nuclear war. In my opinion this is
just for scaring Iran. I don't think that Bush would dare to start a
nuclear attack.
I would very much like to believe that. But GWB has said otherwise.
And I think that we know that he likes to be known as a man of his word,
at least when he makes threats.
|
Read "The Price of Loyalty" about Paul O'Neill's time at Treasury
Sec. for GWB. You'll find that Paul was present at the 1st (10
days after GWB took office in 2001) & 2nd (not too many days
later) meetings of the national security counsel. At the 2nd
meeting Rumsfeld brought a map of Iraq to the meeting. That
map was marked up oil field data and the names of the American
energy companies which would be granted control of each field
after the US invasion of Iraq. This was months before 9/11,
and only days into the GWB fiasco. After reading the book I'm
convinced that if GWB thinks that it might ever be necessary
to nuke Iran, then he will do that before leaving office since
anyone who would take over after him wouldn't think of getting
the job done. Personally, I think GWB will nuke Iran before
leaving office. What a mess we are in. Sorry Earth, our leader
is an idiot or the common centroid of evil.
--
PLEASE post a SUMMARY of the answer(s) to your question(s)!
Show Windows & Gates to the exit door.
Unless otherwise noted, the statements herein reflect my personal
opinions and not those of any organization with which I may be affiliated. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kevin
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 340
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:43 pm Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
responder <no@spam.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
What about other search engines? Anything similar going on there?
--
PLEASE post a SUMMARY of the answer(s) to your question(s)!
Show Windows & Gates to the exit door.
Unless otherwise noted, the statements herein reflect my personal
opinions and not those of any organization with which I may be affiliated. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
Kevin the Drummer wrote:
| Quote: | responder <no@spam.invalid> wrote:
Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
What about other search engines? Anything similar going on there?
|
I really haven't used them enough to be able to detect differences, but
would be interested in reading others' answers to this. At the moment I
am still getting what appear good current links by doing direct searches
at news.google.com. Think I recently read that google has >50% of the
search market, at least right now, or then.
I did post earlier a list of some other engines. From past experience, my
impression was that dogpile was quite good. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
M. Trimble
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:41 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
responder wrote:
....
| Quote: |
If you think you would like to try, I may be able to set up some
conference calls with correspondents in other countries so we could verify
some content issues in real time. However, this is finals week in many
places, and time is at a premium for many of us.
Thanks for writing.
|
I don't think a conference call is the right answer; especially not in the
international flavor.
Instead, might I recommend we establish a non-newsgroup conversation
pipeline. I propose this so we can organize a loose consortium of users in
several countries for the specific purpose of hitting the google news
servers at the same time, using the same set of search terms, then
comparing the results. My friend, I think this might finally and
definitively answer all of our questions.
If you - or whoever is curious and or willing to help out - log
members.cox.net/met12327 for my website and contact page. [I'm not trying
to keep a secret, just trying to keep the address out of the news groups -
bots, you know] How about we establish a tentative date and time of 31 May,
2006 at 1800 gmt, with search terms to be determined out of stream and how
to handle/manipulate the results to be determined the same way, and a
volunteer cut-of of 21 May, 2006, at 1800 gmt.
I'll look forward to hearing from you all Real Soon Now. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:47 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
|
I will look carefully, and hope many others will also. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:52 am Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
M. Trimble wrote:
| Quote: | responder wrote:
...
If you think you would like to try, I may be able to set up some
conference calls with correspondents in other countries so we could verify
some content issues in real time. However, this is finals week in many
places, and time is at a premium for many of us.
Thanks for writing.
I don't think a conference call is the right answer; especially not in the
international flavor.
Instead, might I recommend we establish a non-newsgroup conversation
pipeline. I propose this so we can organize a loose consortium of users in
several countries for the specific purpose of hitting the google news
servers at the same time, using the same set of search terms, then
comparing the results. My friend, I think this might finally and
definitively answer all of our questions.
If you - or whoever is curious and or willing to help out - log
members.cox.net/met12327 for my website and contact page. [I'm not trying
to keep a secret, just trying to keep the address out of the news groups -
bots, you know] How about we establish a tentative date and time of 31 May,
2006 at 1800 gmt, with search terms to be determined out of stream and how
to handle/manipulate the results to be determined the same way, and a
volunteer cut-of of 21 May, 2006, at 1800 gmt.
I'll look forward to hearing from you all Real Soon Now.
|
I looked at you pages, and I wish you success in your commercial
enterprise. I don't think what you have written rises to any overriding
need that has not already been expressed. This is more important than any
individual commercial consideration. And, while I am glad to count you as
a friend, I think that you need to do more to flesh out details of your
commercial hopes, before you can expect much widespread support for them.
You can look for encrypted irc on google. There are probably other
options, but irc looks like a reasonable alternate mode. You can set up a
mailing list, but I don't think you should expect someone else to do that
for your own commercial purposes.
I think you are "risk-averse" when it comes to talking to people outside
of the US. I do it all the time. That makes me a target for NSA, but
don't worry about that. All people are targets, even if they are not
acknowledged as such now. And if you have a business or cash flow, they
will get to you first when their funds are low.
Think I can understand your perspective. But you are ignorant and
tunnel-visioned if you are viewing this all from a purely commercial
perspective. It is way more than that. Think you would do well to keep
your commercial ambitions off this ng.
Perhaps I am all wrong.
Best wishes.
--
colloquy_no_9 {at-sign} spam-mailingaddress.org
eliminate the spam- |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
M. Trimble
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 35
|
| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
| Quote: |
You can look for encrypted irc on google. There are probably other
options, but irc looks like a reasonable alternate mode. You can set up a
mailing list, but I don't think you should expect someone else to do that
for your own commercial purposes.
I think you are "risk-averse" when it comes to talking to people outside
of the US. I do it all the time. That makes me a target for NSA, but
don't worry about that. All people are targets, even if they are not
acknowledged as such now. And if you have a business or cash flow, they
will get to you first when their funds are low.
Think I can understand your perspective. But you are ignorant and
tunnel-visioned if you are viewing this all from a purely commercial
perspective. It is way more than that. Think you would do well to keep
your commercial ambitions off this ng.
Perhaps I am all wrong.
Best wishes.
chuckling at the irony... |
ahem
</chuckling at the irony...>
Sorry. Got a bit carried away. Actually, commercialism never entered the
picture; trying to drive business my direction was not even on the radar
when I wrote that. I was just thinking, 'how do I come up with an
out-of-bandwidth, low-cost means of communicating in a big hurry?' and the
idea of pointing to the web site just popped up.
And on the point of commercialism, I am going for a very niche market. Omaha
is saturated with IT people of all flavors, and they all sell to the upper
end of the economic spectrum. I'm going for the bottom end. The concept is
still in development, probably will be for a long time to come. No patch on
you, in fact, please consider it a compliment when I say that if you came
to me as a potential client, I'd say something along the lines of, 'you
need way more than I can offer; I want you to be happy with your experience
so why don't you go see [blank]' for any non-random 'blank' = business or
individual capable of serving your needs with more skill than I possess or
profess and whom I know from personal experience to have similar integrity
to mine. Short version: I'll turn down money before I'll try to bs you and
I won't send you to someone who will.
'Nuff said about crass materialism. We were talking about out-of-bandwidth
communication. International perspective is a good thing; I've just never
gone out of my way to make the effort, figuring that my chance would come
soon enough - not parochial, but not chasing people down, either. I'll look
into irc, whether secure or not over the next day or three and post back
here when/as....
That said:
Quick poll of the audience worldwide: show of hands, who's willing able to
hook up at a given time and date to hit Google news servers using the same
search terms then visit later over IRC or other non-ng pipeline? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russell E. Owen
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 117
|
| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject:
Update #2 - Re: Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
|
|
| Quote: | Google Bobbles NSA wiretap searches
|
Received Tuesday, May 9:
Hi XXXX,
Thank you for your note. Your email was passed on to our User Support team
so we can assist you with your question about Google News. We are sorry
that Google News did not cover this story to your satisfaction. Google
News is highly unusual in that it offers a news service compiled solely by
computer algorithms without human intervention. Please know that there are
no human editors at Google selecting or grouping the headlines, and no
individual decides which stories get top placement. We are working to
improve this service and will use your feedback in this ongoing process.
We strive to include as many news sources as possible in Google News and
appreciate suggestions from our users. If there is a news site you would
like to see included in Google News, please send us the URL so that we can
review it. While we can't guarantee that we will add all source
suggestions, we will review all the recommendations we receive.
Additionally, please note that articles are archived in Google News for
only 30 days. If you're looking for older news coverage or want to find
additional information about a topic, we encourage you to try a Google Web
Search at www.google.com
We appreciate your taking the time to provide feedback on Google News and
hope you will contact us in the future with additional observations and
suggestions.
Regards,
The Google Team |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Google
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
The time now is Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:49 am | All times are GMT
|
|
Bad Credit Mortgages | MPAA | Credit Cards UK | Credit Cards | Loans
|
|
Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
|
|
|
|
Other DeniX Solutions sites:
Unix/Linux blog |
electronics forum |
medicine forum |
science forum |
|
|
Privacy Policy
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Forum index
»
*nix
»
Linux
»
security
