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| Author |
Message |
Jordan K. Hubbard
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:38 am Post subject:
Re: Jordan, can you please comment? Re: [off-topic] NTFS, Apple and GPL vs LGPL (Was : NTFS write support)
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I think it's fair to say that Apple is always interested in BSD
licensed alternatives to any GPL'd code it may be or is considering
using and, for appropriate projects, is also interested in figuring
out how to support them. What did you guys have in mind?
- Jordan
On Feb 26, 2006, at 2:02 PM, Sergey Babkin wrote:
| Quote: | Gilbert Fernandes wrote:
In November, Apple has again tried to hijack Linux-NTFS code, this
time by
suggesting {http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?
msg_id=13769046}
that it be licensed under the LGPL. This was promptly rejected by
one main
developer, who threatened lawsuits.
----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8
It is thus highly probable that Apple would like to see a BSD-based
implementation of NTFS. They asked twice the GPL-based project to
adopt a
dual-licence so they (Apple) would be able to integrate this into
MacOS X.
Perhaps Apple would agree to give some support for the BSD-licence
based
work ?
Hm, we should probably ask Jordan Hubbard to comment on this.
-SB
|
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Sergey Babkin
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject:
Jordan, can you please comment? Re: [off-topic] NTFS, Apple and GPL vs LGPL (Was : NTFS write support)
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Gilbert Fernandes wrote:
| Quote: |
In November, Apple has again tried to hijack Linux-NTFS code, this time by
suggesting {http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=13769046}
that it be licensed under the LGPL. This was promptly rejected by one main
developer, who threatened lawsuits.
----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8
It is thus highly probable that Apple would like to see a BSD-based
implementation of NTFS. They asked twice the GPL-based project to adopt a
dual-licence so they (Apple) would be able to integrate this into MacOS X.
Perhaps Apple would agree to give some support for the BSD-licence based
work ?
|
Hm, we should probably ask Jordan Hubbard to comment on this.
-SB
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Gilbert Fernandes
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject:
Re: [off-topic] NTFS, Apple and GPL vs LGPL (Was : NTFS write support)
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| Quote: | First of all, everything that you quoted from Slashdot is rubbish.
|
I did say it was a Slashdot comment. The word "Slashdot" itself means a lot
but adding "comment" to it clearly explains how this information is to be
considered  )
The point was more broad than the comment itself, though.
Apple is curently using the FreeBSD ntfs driver to mount NTFS partitions.
--
unzip ; strip ; touch ; grep ; find ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ;
fsck ; umount ; sleep
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Scott Long
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject:
Re: [off-topic] NTFS, Apple and GPL vs LGPL (Was : NTFS write support)
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Gilbert Fernandes wrote:
| Quote: | I'm pretty sure that Microsoft makes the technical details
available for NTFS, either from their website or from one of their
DDKs.
There is a Linux NTFS project at linux-ntfs.org
This is mainly off-topic but while reading a few days ago an article on
Slashdot called " Will MacIntel Kill Apple Open Source Efforts?", I read an
interesting comment about Apple and that NTFS Linux project :
----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8
Last July, Apple asked [sourceforge.net] {http://linux-ntfs.org/} Anton
Altaparmakov, lead developer of the Linux-NTFS [linux-ntfs.org] project, to
dual license the Linux-NTFS driver under the APL so that the Intel version
of OS X can read/write files on Windows partitions (presumably for
dual-boot computers). The problem pointed out by other Linux-NTFS
developers is that the APL is not GPL compatible [gnu.org], and any changes
made by Apple to the driver will be unusable in Linux. As one person put it:
This would open up a one-way street: towards OS X and away from GNU/Linux
and any other OS based on the GPL.
Not to mention the Konqueror / Safari fiasco
{http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/07/134222} where Apple
complied to the terms of the LGPL by the skin of their teeth, making it
impossible [kdedevelopers.org] for open source developers to port changes
upstream.
In November, Apple has again tried to hijack Linux-NTFS code, this time by
suggesting {http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=13769046}
that it be licensed under the LGPL. This was promptly rejected by one main
developer, who threatened lawsuits.
----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8
It is thus highly probable that Apple would like to see a BSD-based
implementation of NTFS. They asked twice the GPL-based project to adopt a
dual-licence so they (Apple) would be able to integrate this into MacOS X.
Perhaps Apple would agree to give some support for the BSD-licence based
work ?
|
First of all, everything that you quoted from Slashdot is rubbish.
There isn't a single opinion in there that has any relationship to
reality. It makes me sad that such junk has such a wide audience.
If you want to work on a BSD licensed NTFS module, it's reasonable to
expect that Apple might show some interest in it, but it's unreasonable
to expect or demand that they will act as an equal partner in developing
and sharing. They might be very open and cooperative like they are with
Webkit, or they might not. You've got to decide that you are OK with
sharing your effort with no expectation of a return from them.
A good example is my work with the UDF filesystem in FreeBSD. Shortly
after I checked it in, I was contacted by SGI about them wanting to
incorporate it into IRIX. Since it was BSD licensed, they we allowed
to. Over a few months they fed back a few comments that resulted in bug
fixes, but they never sent in code or patches, and they didn't share any
of the new features that they had added. But that's ok, my had no
expectations that they owed me anything in return, I was simply happy to
share and pleased that they found my work good enough to reuse for
themselves. But, it's a personal choice. I could have just as easily
GPL'd the code before checking it in (which would have still been
allowed) and then demanded that anyone working on it share. In the end,
SGI probably would have looked elsewhere. There are pros and cons to
both approaches.
Scott
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Gilbert Fernandes
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject:
[off-topic] NTFS, Apple and GPL vs LGPL (Was : NTFS write support)
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| Quote: | I'm pretty sure that Microsoft makes the technical details
available for NTFS, either from their website or from one of their
DDKs.
|
There is a Linux NTFS project at linux-ntfs.org
This is mainly off-topic but while reading a few days ago an article on
Slashdot called " Will MacIntel Kill Apple Open Source Efforts?", I read an
interesting comment about Apple and that NTFS Linux project :
----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>
Last July, Apple asked [sourceforge.net] {http://linux-ntfs.org/} Anton
Altaparmakov, lead developer of the Linux-NTFS [linux-ntfs.org] project, to
dual license the Linux-NTFS driver under the APL so that the Intel version
of OS X can read/write files on Windows partitions (presumably for
dual-boot computers). The problem pointed out by other Linux-NTFS
developers is that the APL is not GPL compatible [gnu.org], and any changes
made by Apple to the driver will be unusable in Linux. As one person put it:
This would open up a one-way street: towards OS X and away from GNU/Linux
and any other OS based on the GPL.
Not to mention the Konqueror / Safari fiasco
{http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/07/134222} where Apple
complied to the terms of the LGPL by the skin of their teeth, making it
impossible [kdedevelopers.org] for open source developers to port changes
upstream.
In November, Apple has again tried to hijack Linux-NTFS code, this time by
suggesting {http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=13769046}
that it be licensed under the LGPL. This was promptly rejected by one main
developer, who threatened lawsuits.
----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>----8>
It is thus highly probable that Apple would like to see a BSD-based
implementation of NTFS. They asked twice the GPL-based project to adopt a
dual-licence so they (Apple) would be able to integrate this into MacOS X.
Perhaps Apple would agree to give some support for the BSD-licence based
work ?
--
unzip ; strip ; touch ; grep ; find ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ;
fsck ; umount ; sleep
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Max Khon
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: NTFS write support
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Hi!
On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 06:47:45AM -0600, Sergey Babkin wrote:
| Quote: | In message: <43EFF3E2.90001@samsco.org
Scott Long <scottl@samsco.org> writes:
: Sergey Babkin wrote:
: I'm pretty sure that Microsoft makes the technical details available
: for NTFS, either from their website or from one of their DDKs. The
: hardest part is probably in dealing with their journal.
Well, looks like they send the DDK for $15. I've
ordered one, we'll see what's inside it. Does not
seem to be much useful information on their web site.
|
I guess you need IFS Kit (which is a superset of DDK). But it does not contain
any NTFS docs.
/fjoe
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Sergey Babkin
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: NTFS write support
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| Quote: | From: "M. Warner Losh" <imp@bsdimp.com
In message: <43EFF3E2.90001@samsco.org
Scott Long <scottl@samsco.org> writes:
: Sergey Babkin wrote:
: I'm pretty sure that Microsoft makes the technical details available
: for NTFS, either from their website or from one of their DDKs. The
: hardest part is probably in dealing with their journal.
|
Well, looks like they send the DDK for $15. I've
ordered one, we'll see what's inside it. Does not
seem to be much useful information on their web site.
| Quote: | There's at least one book on the structure of ntfs. I used to have a
copy, but I can't find it anymore... But the book wasn't enough to do
an implementation...
|
Ah, good to know that it's not worth wasting $180.
It's out of print by now, and also they've updated
the NTFS format sinc ethe book was written.
-SB
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Vulpes Velox
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 16 Apr 2003
Posts: 7
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:17 am Post subject:
Re: NTFS write support
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|
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:51:29 +0300
Roman Kurakin <rik@inse.ru> wrote:
| Quote: | Sergey Babkin:
Hi,
I've finally got Win XP as the second OS on my mahcine. The next
thing I've found is that NTFS support still seems to be read-only,
and it does not look like anybody is actively working on it.
So adding the NTFS write support looks like an interesting
project to undertake.
Just in case, if anybody working on it already, please let me know.
Any kinds of ready pointers to the good docs would be welcome.
Or to the existing implementations too (Linux?).
IIRC Linux has write support but code marked as "NEW" and thus not
stable. As for me, I solved that problem by setting up FreeBSD and
Win on separate machines. I've done this after interference between
ntloader and sysinstall.
|
I found a nice fix to be using partition magic, converting it to
fat32, and then reinstalling the freebsd bootloader. It is also handy
for shrinking installs as well.
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Scott Long
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 167
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:25 am Post subject:
Re: NTFS write support
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|
Max Khon wrote:
| Quote: | Hi!
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 09:18:35AM -0600, Sergey Babkin wrote:
I think ntfsprogs (in the ports tree) does everything in userland, and they
claim to have stable write support. The homepage is here:
http://www.linux-ntfs.org/
They also have some documentation there.
They also have some docs. Not very readable but seems to have
quite a few details. Time to do some reading.
My opinion is that from-scratch implementation is not possible within
reasonable period of time. I'd suggest to try to port captive ntfs + fuse
framework or (oh my! I did not tell you that) extend ndisulator so that it
is possible to load ntfs.sys directly into the kernel.
/fjoe
|
Filesystems are one of those things that are very, very, very tightly
coupled with the virtual memory system. They are basically the center
of the universe for Unix-like kernels. Anyone who succeeds at making
a shim layer for NT filesystem modules likely has a very exciting career
ahead of them in turning lead to gold, developing perpetual motion
machines, and solving world peace (yummmm.... whirled peas.....)
=-D
Scott
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Sergey Babkin
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: NTFS write support
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|
|
| Quote: | From: John Nielsen <lists@jnielsen.net
http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/
Interesting. Though I'm pretty sure that MS is going to object
strongly to any usage of their drivers outside of their OS.
Donwload it quickly before the MS lawyers have shown up.
Captive NTFS doesn't actually include any ntfs drivers. The user must supply
their own copy (presumably obtained through legitimate means) which the
captive framework then uses.
|
Well, the problem is that the Microsoft's position is
going to be that there are no such legitimate means.
It's quite a popular belief among the software
licensing lawyers nowadays. AFAIK it has not been
tested in court, but do you have enough money
to afford a lawsuit with Microsoft?
-SB
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John Nielsen
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject:
Re: NTFS write support
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|
On Monday 13 February 2006 12:02, Sergey Babkin wrote:
| Quote: | From: Max Khon <fjoe@samodelkin.net
On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 07:41:04PM -0500, Sergey Babkin wrote:
I've finally got Win XP as the second OS on my mahcine. The next
thing I've found is that NTFS support still seems to be read-only,
and it does not look like anybody is actively working on it.
So adding the NTFS write support looks like an interesting
project to undertake.
Just in case, if anybody working on it already, please let me know.
Any kinds of ready pointers to the good docs would be welcome.
Or to the existing implementations too (Linux?).
http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/
Interesting. Though I'm pretty sure that MS is going to object
strongly to any usage of their drivers outside of their OS.
Donwload it quickly before the MS lawyers have shown up.
|
Captive NTFS doesn't actually include any ntfs drivers. The user must supply
their own copy (presumably obtained through legitimate means) which the
captive framework then uses.
JN
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Sergey Babkin
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: NTFS write support
|
|
|
| Quote: | From: Max Khon <fjoe@samodelkin.net
On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 07:41:04PM -0500, Sergey Babkin wrote:
I've finally got Win XP as the second OS on my mahcine. The next
thing I've found is that NTFS support still seems to be read-only,
and it does not look like anybody is actively working on it.
So adding the NTFS write support looks like an interesting
project to undertake.
Just in case, if anybody working on it already, please let me know.
Any kinds of ready pointers to the good docs would be welcome.
Or to the existing implementations too (Linux?).
http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/
|
Interesting. Though I'm pretty sure that MS is going to object
strongly to any usage of their drivers outside of their OS.
Donwload it quickly before the MS lawyers have shown up.
-SB
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Max Khon
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: NTFS write support
|
|
|
Hi!
On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 09:18:35AM -0600, Sergey Babkin wrote:
| Quote: | I think ntfsprogs (in the ports tree) does everything in userland, and they
claim to have stable write support. The homepage is here:
http://www.linux-ntfs.org/
They also have some documentation there.
They also have some docs. Not very readable but seems to have
quite a few details. Time to do some reading.
|
My opinion is that from-scratch implementation is not possible within
reasonable period of time. I'd suggest to try to port captive ntfs + fuse
framework or (oh my! I did not tell you that) extend ndisulator so that it
is possible to load ntfs.sys directly into the kernel.
/fjoe
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Sergey Babkin
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject:
Re: Re: NTFS write support
|
|
|
They also have some docs. Not very readable but seems to have
quite a few details. Time to do some reading.
Thanks, everyone!
-SB
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Max Khon
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 13
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject:
Re: NTFS write support
|
|
|
Hi!
On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 07:41:04PM -0500, Sergey Babkin wrote:
| Quote: | I've finally got Win XP as the second OS on my mahcine. The next
thing I've found is that NTFS support still seems to be read-only,
and it does not look like anybody is actively working on it.
So adding the NTFS write support looks like an interesting
project to undertake.
Just in case, if anybody working on it already, please let me know.
Any kinds of ready pointers to the good docs would be welcome.
Or to the existing implementations too (Linux?).
|
http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/
/fjoe
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