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Derek Broughton
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 25
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 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote:
| Quote: | Sean Perry on Thursday 13 Jul 2006 01:37 wrote:
That said, most laptop batteries degrade performance significantly if
left plugged into the mains 24/7. So only plug in for refills.
That's scary.
I've been using my laptop 24/7 plugged into the mains.
Can you refer me to some documentation which details about it ?
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I'm not sure how "significant" the degradation is. I almost never use my
battery, but I leave it in, even when plugged in. It's down to about a 1hr
charge (originally 3) after 2 years. But I've been told best practices
won't give you much more than a 3 year life span, anyway.
--
derek
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Chris Mattern
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com>
| Quote: | On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 01:07:48PM -0700, Sean Perry wrote:
That said, most laptop batteries degrade performance significantly if
left plugged into the mains 24/7. So only plug in for refills.
Really? Most batteries lose life if repeatedly discharged and recharged.
|
He's remembering advice for the old NiCad type batteries. Unless
you're using a laptop that's over five years old, his advice is
in fact not appropriate.
Chris Mattern
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M-L
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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On Friday 14 July 2006 03:47, Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote this for perusal by us
all:
| Quote: | --> Sean Perry on Thursday 13 Jul 2006 01:37 wrote:
--
--> > That said, most laptop batteries degrade performance significantly if
--> > left plugged into the mains 24/7. So only plug in for refills.
--
--> That's scary.
--
--> I've been using my laptop 24/7 plugged into the mains.
--
--> Can you refer me to some documentation which details about it ?
--
--> Thanks,
--> Ritesh
--> --
--> Ritesh Raj Sarraf
|
My first laptop, some obscure name I no longer recall, back in the middle 90's
had a battery that lasted for over 5 years, till it finally was only good for
a few minutes.
It was running a windows system. It was run off generator electricity because
we had no other, and a desktop would be broken by that rough electrical
power.
When running on battery and the warning came up to save and switch to
electrical power, I didn't do so. I just saved and shut down all programs
except the card game and played that till the battery gave up and the laptop
went down. This was to ensure that the battery didn't get a memory of any
kind. Every time I turned on the computer it had to check disks etc.. But it
didn't hurt the machine or the operating system.
My current Acer 1350 lappy I run the same way. But have only had it for 2
years. There is no noticeable battery power loss as yet? [touch wood] But
unlike the firt laptop, I don't run it on generator till the battery is
charged, then on battery till its depleted, then on generator again. But I do
use it as a desktop, but without the battery much of the time, because we
have solar power now, when there is sufficient sunlight.
HTH
Charlie
--
Registered Linux User:- 329524
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To have done anything just for money is to have been truly
idle. .......................................Henry David Thoreau
...............................................................
Debian
________________________________________________________________________________________________
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charlie
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:00 am Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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On Friday 14 July 2006 07:08, Chris Mattern wrote this for perusal by us all:
| Quote: | --> Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com
--
--> > On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 01:07:48PM -0700, Sean Perry wrote:
--
--
--> >>> That said, most laptop batteries degrade performance significantly
if --> >>> left plugged into the mains 24/7. So only plug in for refills.
--
--
--> > Really? Most batteries lose life if repeatedly discharged and
recharged. --
--> He's remembering advice for the old NiCad type batteries. Unless
--> you're using a laptop that's over five years old, his advice is
--> in fact not appropriate.
--
--
--> Chris Mattern
|
Really?
I understand that current batteries are less likely to develop a memory as
quickly, but within their 500 charges life, still lose battery time if not
totally discharged? But then my information may be incorrect?
My current Acer laptop, 2 years old. Has the company suggest that a 500 charge
life cycle is usual, but could vary. It doesn't suggest that the battery will
continue to deliver the same amount of battery time throughout that cycle
though. If it doesn't supply that power over the life of the battery, it must
be developing a memory, or degrading? Whatever term you wish to use, I
reckon.
Charlie
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To be positive: To be mistaken at the top of one's voice. .............Ambrose
Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
| Quote: |
Linux Debian Flavour |
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Nate Duehr
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:20 am Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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Chris Mattern wrote:
| Quote: | Carl Fink <carl@finknetwork.com
On Wed, Jul 12, 2006 at 01:07:48PM -0700, Sean Perry wrote:
That said, most laptop batteries degrade performance significantly
if left plugged into the mains 24/7. So only plug in for refills.
Really? Most batteries lose life if repeatedly discharged and recharged.
He's remembering advice for the old NiCad type batteries. Unless
you're using a laptop that's over five years old, his advice is
in fact not appropriate.
|
Yeah, Lithium Ion batteries do have some degradation but nothing
compared to NiCD or NiMH. They'll last for many years if the charging
circuits used are following the manufacturer's specifications.
The biggest "issue" with the new batteries is that the charging
"intelligence" is contained in the battery pack itself in most designs,
and after a while the "power meter" can get a little off. Best plan for
that is to completely discharge and recharge once in a while (every 3
months?) to correct any errors in battery level indicated by the laptop.
Most designs now also track "interesting" information but there's not
a whole lot of linux support for reading it from the motherboards that
will share it with the end-user. Number of charge cycles, highest
recorded battery voltage, lowest, etc... all stored in flash on the
charging circuit integrated chipset.
Also Lithium Ion are recommended to be charged between 40-50% if they're
going to be unused for a lengthy period of time, not "topped off".
Nate
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Carl Fink
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:20 am Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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On Fri, Jul 14, 2006 at 09:32:28AM +1000, Charlie wrote:
| Quote: | My current Acer laptop, 2 years old. Has the company suggest that a 500 charge
life cycle is usual, but could vary. It doesn't suggest that the battery will
continue to deliver the same amount of battery time throughout that cycle
though. If it doesn't supply that power over the life of the battery, it must
be developing a memory, or degrading? Whatever term you wish to use, I
reckon.
|
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop memory,
they just lose capacity each time they're charged. By keeping the battery
plugged in (never discharging it) you extend, not shorten, the life.
--
Carl Fink carl@finknetwork.com
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your
government when it deserves it."
- Mark Twain
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Jay Vollmer
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:00 am Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
|
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
--
JAY VOLLMER JVOLLMER@VISI.COM
TEXT REFS DOUBLEPLUSUNGOOD SELFTHINK
VERGING CRIMETHINK - IGNORE FULLWISE
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Carl Fink
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 10:51:03PM -0500, Jay C Vollmer wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
|
No.
A NiCad battery has true memory. If you discharge it 35% then recharge it,
it tends to be only 35% of capacity ever after. With Li-Ion batteries, if
you discharge it 35% and recharge it, it might lose (WAG) 1% of its
capacity.
--
Carl Fink carl@finknetwork.com
If you attempt to fix something that isn't broken, it will be.
-Bruce Tognazzini
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Mike McCarty
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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Carl Fink wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 10:51:03PM -0500, Jay C Vollmer wrote:
On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
No.
A NiCad battery has true memory. If you discharge it 35% then recharge it,
it tends to be only 35% of capacity ever after. With Li-Ion batteries, if
|
This is incorrect. Very early NiCd cells used in satellites exhibited
symptoms vaguely similar (but only vaguely) to what you describe, and
those were the liquid filled ones. The modern ones do not have any
memory effect whatsoever.
| Quote: | you discharge it 35% and recharge it, it might lose (WAG) 1% of its
capacity.
|
Each charge/discharge cycle causes *any* secondary cell to lose
some of it's ability to accept another charge. It's called
"wearout".
For a simple explanation of what is happening, see
http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Battery.html
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article10-Page1.asp
Mike
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This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
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Mike McCarty
*nix forums Guru
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 476
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
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Gnu-Raiz wrote:
| Quote: | "David R. Litwin" <presently42@gmail.com
I have a year old Toshiba Intel Mobil P4 laptop using Sid.
Does your laptop get hot under load? My wife has a Pentium M that
burned out two motherboards, when used to crunch RC5-72.
I look at it like this, if a computer is left on it might as well be
doing something, might as well get some use out of it. So I suggest
|
[snip]
Wasteful of electricity, unless the work truly is useful. So, if
you are going to do this, chose the "background work" wisely.
Some people are members of GIMPS, which might qualify.
Mike
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This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
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Nate Duehr
*nix forums beginner
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
|
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Carl Fink wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Jul 13, 2006 at 10:51:03PM -0500, Jay C Vollmer wrote:
On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
No.
A NiCad battery has true memory. If you discharge it 35% then recharge it,
it tends to be only 35% of capacity ever after. With Li-Ion batteries, if
you discharge it 35% and recharge it, it might lose (WAG) 1% of its
capacity.
|
Actually a number of tests were done by NASA and Amateurs over the years
and proved that NiCD memory effect is often caused by improper (read:
cheap) charging systems.
NiCD's are used in almost every satellite flying today, and don't
exhibit memory problems when charged and maintained correctly on-orbit.
Some of the Amateur-built satellites (groups like
http://www.amsat.org) have seen very extended mission profiles from
properly maintained, monitored, and charged NiCD systems, and even
longer lifespans after the batteries have "died" and won't accept a
charge, but still allow current from the solar charging systems to pass
through to the satellite radios and equipment.
Too many people don't understand this and "expect" battery problems from
NiCD technology so manufacturers spend little money on their charge
circuits knowing that consumers will happily buy another battery in 2-3
years. Most consumer charging circuits for NiCD don't monitor properly
and charge at far too high a rate for the battery, which overheats the
battery, causing them to vent small amounts of gas in the process, which
destroys the battery over time. LIon batteries aren't nearly as popular
as NiCD in spacecraft/aerospace use, because of NiCd's WELL-KNOWN
properties in those circles. But in consumer devices, the myth still
exists that they exhibit "memory" when this is almost always a result of
improper charging and maintenance.
Nate
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Seeker5528
*nix forums Guru Wannabe
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 126
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Why not?
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|
-------------- Original message ----------------------
| Quote: | Clearly all this is rather a matter of opinion; my only intent in
posting was to provide a counter to your implication that KDE/qt was
somehow obviously superior in functionality/usability, and that people
only like Gnome/gtk for "political" reasons. That's simply not true.
GNOME *is* about politics as is the rest of the GNU Project. So long
as that pertains to Free Software, I have no problem with it and even
support it. What bothers me is when "awareness" of causes not related
to the issue of software are pushed my direction. I was largerly a
fan of GNOME back in its early days until they set about on the whole
"bonobo" thing and that is where they really lost me--I don't want
somebody's personal cause/politics being shoved in my face.
|
Ignorance is bliss. A brief reference that could safely be ignored, unless you consider following a link to get backround information on the name to be pushed on you.
The real politics is GPL versus LGPL and making software work the way people work versus providing masses of options to the point that there must be an option in there some where that lets a person do what they want.
I think any group of bright, assertive, opinionated people is going to have some references to political causes coming up. I hardly see it as a reason to use or not use a particular peice of software. Although it is enough to make me want to unsubsribe from the Gnu Darwin mailing list.
I suppose you don't want to hear about the plight of the carrots then...
" And the angel of the lord came unto me. snatching me up from my place of slumber, and took me on high, and higher still until we moved through the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmland of our own midwest.
And as we descended, cries of impending doom arose from the soil. One thousand, nay, a million voices full of fear. and terror possessed me then.
And I begged: angel of the lord, what are these tortured screams? and the angel said unto me: these are the cries of the carrots. the cries of the carrot. you see, reverend maynard, tomorrow is harvest day, and to them, it is the holocaust.
And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat with the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared: hear me now, I have seen the light. they have a consciousness! They have a life! They have a soul. Damn you! let the rabbits wear glasses. save our brothers."
Later, Seeker
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Micha Feigin
*nix forums addict
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
|
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:51:03 -0500
Jay C Vollmer <jvollmer@visi.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
|
The end effect may be similar in terms of degraded performance, but the
chemical point of view is different.
I don't remember the specifics, but IIRC NiCad develop a 'memory' in that the
material 'remembers' it's charged state and won't discharge. It is recommended
to completely discharge these batteries on occasion to avoid this.
Li-ion don't have this effect, but on the other hand they don't like to be
completely discharged. The problem is that they have several cells, and some
discharge faster then others. When some of the cells completely discharge and
others haven't yet, an effect of back-flow occurs which burns out those cells.
There is another problem with all batteries, (a problem of the charging
circuits actually) that if they are charged too fast they will over heat which
damages them. The second problem is that none of the batteries like to be over
charged, something which usually isn't handled properly either usually.
The integrated circuits may get out of sync with the battery (usually when the
battery degrades with age and the circuit isn't calibrated any more, which
causes false information, but doesn't effect performance). It is sometimes
recommended to discharge the battery completely when that happens to recalibrate
it, but isn't recommended on a regular basis with Li-ions.
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Owen Heisler
*nix forums addict
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 52
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
|
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|
On Sun, 2006-07-16 at 02:06 +0300, Micha Feigin wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:51:03 -0500 Jay C Vollmer wrote:
On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
The end effect may be similar in terms of degraded performance, but the
chemical point of view is different.
I don't remember the specifics, but IIRC NiCad develop a 'memory' in that the
material 'remembers' it's charged state and won't discharge. It is recommended
to completely discharge these batteries on occasion to avoid this.
Li-ion don't have this effect, but on the other hand they don't like to be
completely discharged. The problem is that they have several cells, and some
discharge faster then others. When some of the cells completely discharge and
others haven't yet, an effect of back-flow occurs which burns out those cells.
|
Well, well. I have always tried to completely discharge the battery in
my laptop before charging it; maybe I shouldn't.
| Quote: | There is another problem with all batteries, (a problem of the charging
circuits actually) that if they are charged too fast they will over heat which
damages them. The second problem is that none of the batteries like to be over
charged, something which usually isn't handled properly either usually.
The integrated circuits may get out of sync with the battery (usually when the
battery degrades with age and the circuit isn't calibrated any more, which
causes false information, but doesn't effect performance). It is sometimes
recommended to discharge the battery completely when that happens to recalibrate
it, but isn't recommended on a regular basis with Li-ions.
|
My laptop's lithium ion had no clue what the percentage was. It would
stay between 100 and 50 percent most of the time, then drop suddenly to
0.
I read in a Popular Science magazine that freezing a battery may help.
I had little to lose as this battery was getting very bad, so I tried
it. ...It didn't work. Now the battery will charge, but seems to reset
every ten seconds or so; it flashes full and then goes back to <10%. It
holds absolutely no charge.
It is unfortunate that lithium ion batteries cost so much. To replace
this one costs more than what I gave for the laptop.
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Micha Feigin
*nix forums addict
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 95
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:50 am Post subject:
Re: Shutdown my Laptop? Why should I?
|
|
|
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:57:01 -0500
Owen Heisler <owenh000@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 2006-07-16 at 02:06 +0300, Micha Feigin wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:51:03 -0500 Jay C Vollmer wrote:
On Thursday 13 July 2006 21:24, Carl Fink wrote:
I'm not an electrochemist, but modern Li-ion batteries don't develop
memory, they just lose capacity each time they're charged.
Isn't what you're describing 'memory?'
The end effect may be similar in terms of degraded performance, but the
chemical point of view is different.
I don't remember the specifics, but IIRC NiCad develop a 'memory' in that
the material 'remembers' it's charged state and won't discharge. It is
recommended to completely discharge these batteries on occasion to avoid
this.
Li-ion don't have this effect, but on the other hand they don't like to be
completely discharged. The problem is that they have several cells, and some
discharge faster then others. When some of the cells completely discharge
and others haven't yet, an effect of back-flow occurs which burns out those
cells.
Well, well. I have always tried to completely discharge the battery in
my laptop before charging it; maybe I shouldn't.
There is another problem with all batteries, (a problem of the charging
circuits actually) that if they are charged too fast they will over heat
which damages them. The second problem is that none of the batteries like
to be over charged, something which usually isn't handled properly either
usually.
The integrated circuits may get out of sync with the battery (usually when
the battery degrades with age and the circuit isn't calibrated any more,
which causes false information, but doesn't effect performance). It is
sometimes recommended to discharge the battery completely when that happens
to recalibrate it, but isn't recommended on a regular basis with Li-ions.
My laptop's lithium ion had no clue what the percentage was. It would
stay between 100 and 50 percent most of the time, then drop suddenly to
0.
I read in a Popular Science magazine that freezing a battery may help.
I had little to lose as this battery was getting very bad, so I tried
it. ...It didn't work. Now the battery will charge, but seems to reset
every ten seconds or so; it flashes full and then goes back to <10%. It
holds absolutely no charge.
It is unfortunate that lithium ion batteries cost so much. To replace
this one costs more than what I gave for the laptop.
|
Try looking for batteries on ebay. I got an oem replacement from china for 65$
including shipping (took about 10 days). Locally they cost about 200$. The old
one was lasting about 40 minutes this one goes for over 4 hours (i rarely go
below 50% actually). It also claims to store more juice then it's rated for.
Don't know if that value is true though.
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